Outdoor Adventure USA

ssc wrote: As an aside--If someone walks out and sees you vandalizing there property, they do have the right to use force to get you to stop and remove you from their property. Not deadly force, but it can escalate to a point where they could be justified in using deadly force.

Actually, this isn't an aside. I'm well aware of this, and jokingly, it's why I asked "what are Wyatt and Doc to do with their guns?"

xtatik wrote:My point is simple. Suppose I and a handfull of my friends were inclined to be drunk and disorderly and bent on keeping an entire neighborhood of Arizonans from catching a wink one night. Additionally, that night we also chose to burglarize or vandalize their unoccupied and unattended vehicles. Were talkin' crime. A couple heads of the local households approach us sporting properly holstered shooting irons in true Arizona "wild west" fashion. We moon them, then ignore them, on go on with our mischief of being loud and vandalizing property. What are Wyatt and Doc to do with their guns?

Quite honestly, I still cant figure out what your point is.

If you want to know what a citizen should do when you and your friends are disturbing the peace and vandalizing property, then the answer is the essence of simple. Perform a citizens arrest and turn you over to the police. Then you can tell the judge about "droppin' trou" and flashing a B/A".

For a modest fee, I'm sure Steve would be happy to represent you.

Dave
My point is that when this person on the other forum made the suggestion that people (Californians, being singled out here) should be wary of committing crimes in Arizona. The notion that in a crime situation, Arizonans are somehow endowed with additional rights for actually discharging a gun is a farce. They may be able to carry them, but can only use them in self-defense or in defense of persons who are in eminent danger. These are the only crimes these additional gun rights may or may not suppress.
As for the "citizens arrest" ideal......it's not likely to be effective if I simply choose to turn my back and walk away. Keep in mind, a citizen cannot use a gun to effect this arrest. So, if a citizen is willing to risk escalation and the possible loss of life (for either party) over crimes such as vandalism or malicious mischief, they are fools. In my opinion, any citizen who foolheartedly would carry a gun into a grappling situation in efforts to detain another individual shouldn't be deserving of the right to carry a gun. I'm not aware, but someone please tell me this point is made to individauals seeking this right.
I would bet the state shares this same opinion, and just as it is with any other state in the country, the usual advice given by authorities is to call them in these situations and let them handle it.

xtatik wrote:In my opinion, any citizen who foolheartedly would carry a gun into a grappling situation in efforts to detain another individual shouldn't be deserving of the right to carry a gun. I'm not aware, but someone please tell me this point is made to individauals seeking this right.

I'm guessing you mean concealed here, since AZ has always been an unrestricted open-carry state. It was never part of the official curriculum in the classes to get a CWP, but the better teachers always covered these sorts of basics. Now, no the point is not made at all as AZ is now an unrestricted concealed OR open carry state and anyone from anywhere can carry concealed regardless of licensing or training.

Personally, I feel things like this (and basic marksmanship) should be taught in high school right along side driver's ed (another program that desperately needs vast improvement). If everyone new how to properly and safely handle a vehicle and a firearm, we'd all be better off...

Chazz Layne wrote: AZ is now an unrestricted concealed OR open carry state and anyone from anywhere can carry concealed regardless of licensing or training.

It's hard for me to understand how this scenario doesn't bother gun advocates. I guess they don't have smog in AZ; that cloud you see is actually testosterone evaporating from all gunslingers...

Chazz Layne wrote:Personally, I feel things like this (and basic marksmanship) should be taught in high school right along side driver's ed (another program that desperately needs vast improvement). If everyone new how to properly and safely handle a vehicle and a firearm, we'd all be better off...

Great. Now AZ will be able to lead the nation in precision drive-by shootings....

Chazz Layne wrote:Personally, I feel things like this (and basic marksmanship) should be taught in high school right along side driver's ed (another program that desperately needs vast improvement). If everyone new how to properly and safely handle a vehicle and a firearm, we'd all be better off...

Chazz,
Unfortunately, I think you're are missing my point as well. There are many documented cases where trained peace officers were attempting to physically subdue an individual only to end up having their own gun wrested from their belt or hands (once drawn) and subsequently being overtaken and shot with it. Just as you say, I doubt Arizona will ever embrace a program that will train their armed civilians in ways to minimize this. If this is so, are all the Arizonans that are packing guns also packing the wisdom, skills or training for handling criminal situations that don't involve defense? Me knowz not!
Just as persons of abyssmal intellect can learn to drive...they can learn the basics of gun safety and handling....and I don't regard marksmanship as a high functioning skill either. The issue here has nothing to do with how you handle or carry it...This issue has everything to do with law and when you can actually use it, and the answer to that question in a crime situation is.... very, very rarely. In fact, statiscally never. If you can suppress your inner Duke hero response and stay in touch with your inner big boy and not go looking for trouble, the chances are about nil, zip, zero.
My knowing this has me wondering how many rootin'-tootin'-gunslingin' Arizonans know this. After all, guns don't kill people, people kill people. How many Arizonans can be trusted to know when is the right time and when is the wrong time to draw their guns?

xtatik wrote:

Chazz Layne wrote:Personally, I feel things like this (and basic marksmanship) should be taught in high school right along side driver's ed (another program that desperately needs vast improvement). If everyone new how to properly and safely handle a vehicle and a firearm, we'd all be better off...

Chazz,
Unfortunately, I think you're are missing my point as well. There are many documented cases where trained peace officers were attempting to physically subdue an individual only to end up having their own gun wrested from their belt or hands (once drawn) and subsequently being overtaken and shot with it. Just as you say, I doubt Arizona will ever embrace a program that will train their armed civilians in ways to minimize this. If this is so, are all the Arizonans that are packing guns also packing the wisdom, skills or training for handling criminal situations that don't involve defense? Me knowz not!
Just as persons of abyssmal intellect can learn to drive...they can learn the basics of gun safety and handling....and I don't regard marksmanship as a high functioning skill either. The issue here has nothing to do with how you handle or carry it...This issue has everything to do with law and when you can actually use it, and the answer to that question in a crime situation is.... very, very rarely. In fact, statiscally never. If you can suppress your inner Duke hero response and stay in touch with your inner big boy and not go looking for trouble, the chances are about nil, zip, zero.
My knowing this has me wondering how many rootin'-tootin'-gunslingin' Arizonans know this. After all, guns don't kill people, people kill people. How many Arizonans can be trusted to know when is the right time and when is the wrong time to draw their guns?

Well, here we go again.

It looks like we have another elitist among us. You can see them a mile away because they always say the same thing. Something like this: "Arizonian rootin-tootin gunslinging hillbillies...............". While they rarely admit it, their clear message is that the average guy doesn't have the mental capacity to exercise the wisdom to defend themselves like smart people.

Also, you always know you are in the company of an elitist when they accuse gun owners of trying to be the "Duke" or a "big boy".

It always sounds credible to say that there will be a blood bath when citizens are allowed to own or carry firearms, but these guys are never around to face the truth when the blood bath fails to occur.

Randy, if you are going to opine on matters of guns, at least have the facts straight. There are literally millions of examples of people using firearms, legally, to thwart crime, every year.

Here is really where the rubber meets the road. You have a choice. Do you hide and do nothing when confronted by people intent on doing you harm or do you stand up and defend yourself. Arizona seems to support the right to self defense and they seem to have a whole lot more faith in their citizens than you do.

cruiserlarry wrote:

Chazz Layne wrote: AZ is now an unrestricted concealed OR open carry state and anyone from anywhere can carry concealed regardless of licensing or training.

It's hard for me to understand how this scenario doesn't bother gun advocates.

Try harder!

DaveK wrote: Well, here we go again.

It looks like we have another elitist among us. You can see them a mile away because they always say the same thing. Something like this: "Arizonian rootin-tootin gunslinging hillbillies...............". While they rarely admit it, their clear message is that the average guy doesn't have the mental capacity to exercise the wisdom to defend themselves like smart people.

Also, you always know you are in the company of an elitist when they accuse gun owners of trying to be the "Duke" or a "big boy".

It always sounds credible to say that there will be a blood bath when citizens are allowed to own or carry firearms, but these guys are never around to face the truth when the blood bath fails to occur.

Randy, if you are going to opine on matters of guns, at least have the facts straight. There are literally millions of examples of people using firearms, legally, to thwart crime, every year.

Here is really where the rubber meets the road. You have a choice. Do you hide and do nothing when confronted by people intent on doing you harm or do you stand up and defend yourself. Arizona seems to support the right to self defense and they seem to have a whole lot more faith in their citizens than you do.

Why is there always a need to inflame the situation by labeling an opinion. No matter, there's nothing elitist here - he was just working with the examples provided. And, despite your opining, I don't believe there are millions of successful incidents of self defense with guns by private citizens - just millions of gun owners pretending that the fear they create will make things "safer". I'd say there are more incidents of gun accidents than gun self-defense...just read the papers or listen to the news.

AZ must be one really dangerous place if everyone needs to be armed, with or without training, and that the fear that the "other guy" might be packing is all that keeps the place from imploding from rampant crime. What a scary way to live.

I'm glad it's different here in CA. I'm not sure why more folks don't take their weapons and move to AZ, seeing how enamored they are with those policies, and how miserable they are here in CA. We'd solve two issues at the same time - they could carry their guns anywhere in AZ they wanted, concealed or open carry, and folks like me will feel safer walking around CA, knowing all the gun fanatics are hundreds of miles away.

On a side note, having spent another weekend in the Mojave desert, I got the privilege of seeing hundreds of rounds of casings, and the destruction of everything of any historical significance by gunfire, everywhere we traveled. This is not the work of one or two irresponsible gun owners - it's the work of hundreds. There is no spot that isn't littered with the trash from those who can't seem to control their need to destroy stuff with their guns - and you want to allow these folks to open carry and act in their own defense using their "good" judgment ?? Not me. That's not elitist - that's good old common sense....

Good luck in Arizona....

DaveK wrote: Well, here we go again.

It looks like we have another elitist among us. You can see them a mile away because they always say the same thing. Something like this: "Arizonian rootin-tootin gunslinging hillbillies...............". While they rarely admit it, their clear message is that the average guy doesn't have the mental capacity to exercise the wisdom to defend themselves like smart people.
Also, you always know you are in the company of an elitist when they accuse gun owners of trying to be the "Duke" or a "big boy".
It always sounds credible to say that there will be a blood bath when citizens are allowed to own or carry firearms, but these guys are never around to face the truth when the blood bath fails to occur.
Randy, if you are going to opine on matters of guns, at least have the facts straight. There are literally millions of examples of people using firearms, legally, to thwart crime, every year.
Here is really where the rubber meets the road. You have a choice. Do you hide and do nothing when confronted by people intent on doing you harm or do you stand up and defend yourself. Arizona seems to support the right to self defenseand they seem to have a whole lot more faith in their citizens than you do.

I really don't think introducing some levity while making a point would cause most people to be labeled an elitist. What elite group have I assigned myself to Dave? I'd like to know cuz, I haven't got my membership card yet.
Where did I resort to calling anyone a "hillbilly"? Most of our society has an incomplete understanding of most of our laws. If this weren't so, you'd have a different profession. I think it should be required that those who carry guns amongst our society should have a complete understanding as to how they can be used. Do you find this unreasonable?
As for facts, unless you're speaking in global terms, your "millions"..."every year" won't square up. If you are lumping in the whole of society, you'd be including a whole lot of countries with laws we Americans would find morally reprehensible or would deem as lacking law entirely. So why include them?
And, at what point did I begin arguing issues of self defense or the right to carry?
You seem like you're stuck in one gear on this issue. I'm arguing issues more akin to forms of vigilantism, and the improper use of these rights and you keep coming back with an argument for self defense...Why?
Dave, you're a reasonable guy on most issues, can you acknowledge the possibility of abuses taking place?