Outdoor Adventure USA

cruiserlarry wrote:So, I won't be placing caches - there are already an abundance of 'em - but I'll look out for them in areas I'm going to explore, as it reminds me of treasure hunts we had as kids.

Yep, they are tons of fun to seek out. I check to see if there are any on our planned route, and if I remember, make stops to try and find them. The best one so far was a "micro" cache log and tiny pencil squished into a 12ga. shell, which was then concealed at the bottom of a bush (it was a green shell). The next one was even smaller: a .38 shell.

cruiserlarry wrote:Honestly, the folks trashing these places are not the same as those who show up to help at these events, and it would be nice to hold those responsible for the mess accountable to clean it up...

Ditto. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on perspective) it seems less and less of those "evil off roaders" are to blame, and more often it is the local Bubba and Jim Bob dumping their trash so they don't have to pay at the dump. Barstow may be different, but out here almost all of it is like this. To me, that is even worse as it is the local residents trashing their (our) home...

Chazz Layne wrote: it seems less and less of those "evil off roaders" are to blame, and more often it is the local Bubba and Jim Bob dumping their trash so they don't have to pay at the dump. Barstow may be different, but out here almost all of it is like this. To me, that is even worse as it is the local residents trashing their (our) home...

Not to start a fight, but 99% of the crap we picked up was related to guns and target shooting - completely irresponsible folks who just go out to blow things up....And it's been the same for the 4 years I've been going out to this area to help. Tons of bullet casings, shell cartridges, clay pigeon pieces, cardboard and metal signs potmarked with holes, bullet-ridden car parts, refigerators, propane canisters, all the victims of careless idiots out to prove their manhood with inanimate objects, and all with no concern for others who might want to view something other than their remnants when exploring the outback....makes me wonder why we're worried about terrorists when we have all these armed, thought-free zombies wandering around our deserts....

cruiserlarry wrote:

Chazz Layne wrote: it seems less and less of those "evil off roaders" are to blame, and more often it is the local Bubba and Jim Bob dumping their trash so they don't have to pay at the dump. Barstow may be different, but out here almost all of it is like this. To me, that is even worse as it is the local residents trashing their (our) home...

Not to start a fight, but 99% of the crap we picked up was related to guns and target shooting - completely irresponsible folks who just go out to blow things up....And it's been the same for the 4 years I've been going out to this area to help. Tons of bullet casings, shell cartridges, clay pigeon pieces, cardboard and metal signs potmarked with holes, bullet-ridden car parts, refigerators, propane canisters, all the victims of careless idiots out to prove their manhood with inanimate objects, and all with no concern for others who might want to view something other than their remnants when exploring the outback....makes me wonder why we're worried about terrorists when we have all these armed, thought-free zombies wandering around our deserts....

Hmmmmmmm................let me think. Terrorists kill people and these zombies kill empty propane canisters. It's coming........no, wait........YES, I think I got it. We are worried about terrorists because the are infinitely more dangerous.

Larry, Larry, Larry! I just knew you couldn't resist.


But seriously though, I think we need to understand these people. We should study their reasons for shooting car parts and refrigerators. We shouldn't be so quick to judge them.

DaveK wrote:We should study their reasons for shooting car parts and refrigerators. We shouldn't be so quick to judge them.

I have a pretty good handle on the reasons behind their behavior, but a discussion of small reproductive organs is not appropriate here . Honestly, I don't care what those folks find fascinating about the need to destroy stuff in the name of fun, as long as they do it on there own property, or clean it up in it's entirety when they're done demonstrating the benefits of having a 2 digit IQ...(how's that for not being judgmental )

I don't teach environmental ecology in their houses, and they shouldn't shoot garbage and leave it in my desert...

Those yokels aren't any more respectful of your rights as a law abiding gun owner and enthusiast, than they are of anything else - so they should scare all of us...

Sometimes I don't understand why some people leave shells behind in this economy with ammo prices so high (reloading is cheap ammo). Then I remember they were too lazy to pick up their "targets"...

cruiserlarry wrote:Those yokels aren't any more respectful of your rights as a law abiding gun owner and enthusiast, than they are of anything else - so they should scare all of us...

Well said.

The vast majority of the time it not your average gun owner/target shooter leaving a mess of shot-up crap for us to pick up out there. Its usually just "kids" out trying to have a good time and not really thinking about things. I remember when I was 15-17 years old and out shooting old TV's and propane tanks without ever thinking about cleaning up my mess. It wasn't until I ran into a group of older gentlemen out shooting that I was taught that if I really cared about and enjoyed these areas, it was important for me to do my part and to help educate others to not leave anything behind.

These kids aren't out to prove their manhood, their just being careless and its up to us to show them the error of their ways.

cruiserlarry wrote:Honestly, I don't care what those folks find fascinating about the need to destroy stuff in the name of fun...

I think we need to take you out and show you sometime, Larry. It really is a blast! (Pun intended.)

BorregoWrangler wrote:The vast majority of the time it not your average gun owner/target shooter leaving a mess of shot-up crap for us to pick up out there. Its usually just "kids" out trying to have a good time and not really thinking about things.

I think you are wrong - the majority of this stuff is being done by irresponsible adults, and the kids who come with them. I had plenty of experience blowing stuff up as a teenager, and I get that. But I think you are fooling yourself if you think a couple of ornery teenagers are leaving 10+ tons of trash in this one area alone...kids don't have the money for the amount of casings we spend hours picking up out there...and if you think I'm exaggerating, come out with me to the back areas of the Calico mountains, or virtually any out of the way place in Mojave...

BorregoWrangler wrote:These kids aren't out to prove their manhood, their just being careless, and its up to us to show them the error of their ways.

It should be up to their parents first, and if they don't have the time, knowledge, or energy, don't buy them guns. Teens shouldn't be armed with lethal weapons until they understand the potential consequences of their actions, whether it be about cleaning up their mess, or potentially injuring someone with poor aim or bad technique. I wouldn't hand my kid the keys to the car, and then hope some experienced driver finds him on the street and teaches him how to drive.

BorregoWrangler wrote:I think we need to take you out and show you sometime, Larry. It really is a blast! (Pun intended.)

First show me how you can clean it all up...

Larry:

I admire you for your efforts to clean up a mess and I appreciate your concern for the desert we all enjoy, but way too often you let your anti gun philosophy taint your view of anything connected with guns, and this is a good example.

Before you get your shorts in a bunch, lets start with something we can both agree on - trashing our desert is wrong. There is no excuse for the mess that seems to accumulate in the desert in places like Calico. But to lay the blame for 10 tons of trash at the feet of shooters is just plain wrong. Unless you have some inside information we don't, I am not aware that there is any evidence that this gun crowd is responsible for the cars, refrigerators, washing machines, furniture and other junk that ends up out there. I challenge you to prove that 99% of the "crap" out there are due to the gun crazed "zombies".

It is no secret that the area near Calico is used to illegally dump trash and this has nothing to do with shooting. Before you quickly dismiss John's thoughts, you might want to consider the value of teaching the miscreants, whether young or old, about the value of cleaning up. I know in your mind, anyone with a gun is trying to "prove his manhood", but again you are wrong. Your inability to understand the "desire to destroy stuff, in the name of fun" simply means that it is not right for you. If others enjoy it, it really is no one's business. When they leave the mess, then it is everyone's business.

DaveK wrote:Larry:
Before you get your shorts in a bunch, lets start with something we can both agree on - trashing our desert is wrong. There is no excuse for the mess that seems to accumulate in the desert in places like Calico. But to lay the blame for 10 tons of trash at the feet of shooters is just plain wrong. Unless you have some inside information we don't, I am not aware that there is any evidence that this gun crowd is responsible for the cars, refrigerators, washing machines, furniture and other junk that ends up out there. I challenge you to prove that 99% of the "crap" out there are due to the gun crazed "zombies".

Well, I new the "big guns" would come out if I made a reference to anything related to firearms. But, as usual, you "missed the mark" (Both puns intended ). It is interesting that you are so convinced I can't tell what a shell casing, clay pigeon, or bullet ridden refrigerator looks like. Of course my 99% is an exaggeration, and there is trash dumping in many remote areas, but even the dumped items become targets, and much harder to clean up after they are blown up. My assessment of rogue shooters is not an exaggeration. I know most gun owners are responsible, but there are a lot who are not. Regarding the contents of the garbage we collected (and that "we" did not include either you or John), I have no need to prove anything - I am actually doing something about the problem others are creating. I suggest, before either of you decide I no not from whence I speak, that you show up next year, and see what the rest of us saw, for yourself.
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DaveK wrote:Before you quickly dismiss John's thoughts, you might want to consider the value of teaching the miscreants, whether young or old, about the value of cleaning up.

Of course that is a good idea. Just doesn't address the causes of the problem, one of which are undisciplined shooters.

DaveK wrote: I know in your mind, anyone with a gun is trying to "prove his manhood", but again you are wrong.

Yes, I was wrong - most are proving a lack of it. Actually, I have no problems with guns. Just many of their owners.

DaveK wrote:Your inability to understand the "desire to destroy stuff, in the name of fun" simply means that it is not right for you. If others enjoy it, it really is no one's business. When they leave the mess, then it is everyone's business.

I do understand it - I just don't condone it on someone else's (and that includes the public's) property. Then it is absolutely my business. And when I can't walk 20 feet without stepping on a bullet casing, it should be every responsible gun owner's business, too, especially in consideration of the perceived threats on your 2nd amendment rights.

cruiserlarry wrote:I think you are wrong - the majority of this stuff is being done by irresponsible adults, and the kids who come with them. I had plenty of experience blowing stuff up as a teenager, and I get that. But I think you are fooling yourself if you think a couple of ornery teenagers are leaving 10+ tons of trash in this one area alone...kids don't have the money for the amount of casings we spend hours picking up out there...and if you think I'm exaggerating, come out with me to the back areas of the Calico mountains, or virtually any out of the way place in Mojave...

Well Larry, while you may think that I wrong, I know that I'm right. I have firsthand experience with this. I've seen it. I've dealt with it. Now when I say kids I don't just mean teenagers. You could also say young adults. Keep in mind that all of the casings and brass you picked up wasn't just left there during one outing. That stuff accumulates over time. I've seen it in many of the BLM managed lands throughout San Diego and Imperial Counties, but maybe Calico is different somehow.

I can't tell you how many times I've been out and seen a group of young folks who were out shooting about to leave without cleaning anything up. Before I'm able to head over and chat with them, an older fellow out there has already started to impressing upon them the importance of being good stewards of our public lands. It warms my heart and brings a smile to my face!

cruiserlarry wrote:It should be up to their parents first, and if they don't have the time, knowledge, or energy, don't buy them guns. Teens shouldn't be armed with lethal weapons until they understand the potential consequences of their actions, whether it be about cleaning up their mess, or potentially injuring someone with poor aim or bad technique. I wouldn't hand my kid the keys to the car, and then hope some experienced driver finds him on the street and teaches him how to drive.

I agree that teens and young adults should be responsible when it comes to firearms, cars, driving, etc. Yes, the parents should have a big part in the teaching process, but that isn't going to work if they don't share a common interest in the subject at hand and kids today often don't listen to their parents. If a young person is into shooting and off-roading while his parents are not, then he's not going to hear anything about responsible outdoor recreation from them. He's going to learn it from his peers or hopefully other responsible adults he meets who enjoy the same things. That's how it was for me and many other people I know.

Being proficient, safe, and responsible with a firearm doesn't necessarily have anything to do with cleaning up any mess. However, I can tell you that it will be with my children. When I reached my late teens I was able to demonstrate such competent and safe use with them that I was eventually completely autonomous and proven trustworthy in the handling of firearms. I hope my children will be able to do the same, but I will also teach them what I was not- don't leave a mess for someone else to clean up or risk getting an area closed to public use.

Now of course, whether we're talking about shooting, over-landing, off-roading, hiking, fishing or any number of activities, you'll always find a number of irresponsible, careless individuals of any age group. Hopefully the ones we come across just haven't been taught and don't know any better.

cruiserlarry wrote:

BorregoWrangler wrote:I think we need to take you out and show you sometime, Larry. It really is a blast! (Pun intended.)

First show me how you can clean it all up...

I can assure you that I've spent a lot of time not only on my own but with 4X4 and "gun groups" picking up and clearing away trash and garbage all throughout Anza-Borrego, Cleveland National Forest, and the local BLM lands in my neck of the woods. Feel free to come down sometime and we can get a trail clean-up run going!