Got to Love Arizona

[cruiserlarry]

I actually feel safer camping unarmed in Arizona than I do armed in California. The simple fact is that the criminals out there prey on the California side because they know that there is a very slim chance they'll run into someone who can defend themselves. On the Arizona side its more like flipping a coin for your life.

That is the logic used to justify unrestricted gun ownership, but it's not why you might be safer.

First off, most folks we both know camp armed in CA - so they certainly aren't "prey" for Arizonian criminals. And I doubt there are very good statistics available for CA violent crimes committed by AZ criminals; so, that's just fear-mongering, IMO, anyway.

Arizona has approx 6.5 million people (or only 2/3 the population of Los Angeles alone) - CA has 37 million - and a higher population density, larger transient population, more industry, and so on...so it is always more likely to have a higher crime rate, both directly, and proportionally. But, that is offset by our climate, variety of environments, coastal access, etc., that some see as a benefit. You don't get nothin' for nothin'. That's just how humans roll. The more isolated the people, the less violence you'll find - unless, of course, you provide everyone there with a gun, a map, and a coin to flip...

[xtatik]

Now you're missing my point. I don't know why you only quoted the first part of what I said in post #22 when the rest of it dealt directly with what you've been saying in this thread? I mentioned police because it related with what you stated. I never said that an armed citizen should risk escalating a minor situation. I said that if a responsible civilian makes the decision to carry then there a certain "rules of the road" that should be followed in order to best prevent the use of lethal force.

I'm not taking about an armed citizen choosing to get into a grappling situation in an effort to detain another individual, but it is a type of encounter than one can suddenly find themselves in. Most people may not have any official "training", however, a recent U.S. Supreme Court opinion declared that the right to keep and bear arms for the purposes of self-defense is a fundamental right.

Duly noted. And, I'm aware of second amendment rights and issues of self-defense. I'm hoping everyone else does especially those that are packin'.

[xtatik]

It's interesting you bring this up. I actually feel safer camping unarmed in Arizona than I do armed in California. The simple fact is that the criminals out there prey on the California side because they know that there is a very slim chance they'll run into someone who can defend themselves. On the Arizona side its more like flipping a coin for your life.

In a perfect world everyone would get along fine and no one would need guns. Since it isn't a perfect world, I prefer to at least have an even playing field.

I feel comfortable camping anywhere unarmed. I can't imagine anyone with a propensity for these types of crimes would term the places I venture into as "target rich environments". If they did decide to scour the hinterlands for victims (mwahahaha), I'd say their efforts would be a very unwise, very unsuccessful "low yield enterprise". Individuals like this would have to be nine kinds of stupid and I could probably talk them into giving me all their stuff, including their gun if they had one .
If you work the odds of having trouble in the cities (very low) against the odds of having trouble in the sticks ( stupid low), I would guess the likelihood would drop to where it wouldn't even register statistically.
BTW, there really never is a level playing field.

[Chazz Layne]

BTW, there really never is a level playing field.

Too true!

[DaveK]

It’s nice to see that a little bit of reason has settled in on this discussion but much needs to be stated.

Larry, you are the undisputed KING of grenade throwers. It is a thing of beauty to watch you toss one into a discussion, like this, and then, with a look of purest innocence, wonder why it exploded. Your inquiry as to why I must engage in name calling is easily answered. It’s generally the truth. I call them as I see them. In case you haven’t worked it out yet, there are a huge number of competent, safe and responsible gun owners out there who read this and similar writings. We don’t shoot up signs in the desert, we don’t get drunk and shoot in the air, and we don’t act like gunslingers and big boys as we exercise our rights to keep and bear. I will not refrain from telling the truth when I see it and I will not be shy about calling a spade a spade. If you are not an elitist, prove it. One wonders just how you would react if I went on a rant about 4WD stores, describing them all as cheats and frauds, because of a single bad experience at one store.

Sadly, your disdain for the average gun owner is well documented

Randy, there is no one who enjoys humor more than I do and I appreciate your attempt to inject it into this discussion by characterizing gun owners as big boys and the Duke. Unfortunately, in order for these comments to qualify as humor, they must be funny. Historically, whenever anyone describes gun owners as “big boys”, the “Duke”, or “gunslingers” it was not a term of approval or support. Such descriptions reek of sarcasm and contempt and are nothing but a poorly disguised cheap shot at gun owning citizens. I shall, at least for the moment, accept your comments as an attempt at humor.

[xtatik]

Randy, there is no one who enjoys humor more than I do and I appreciate your attempt to inject it into this discussion by characterizing gun owners as big boys and the Duke. Unfortunately, in order for these comments to qualify as humor, they must be funny. Historically, whenever anyone describes gun owners as “big boys”, the “Duke”, or “gunslingers” it was not a term of approval or support. Such descriptions reek of sarcasm and contempt and are nothing but a poorly disguised cheap shot at gun owning citizens. I shall, at least for the moment, accept your comments as an attempt at humor.

Dave,
I'm going to refrain from rebut on the first paragraph in your last post. Where your attempting references from my earlier comments, I'll only say that you've either taken some unseemly liberties with my original comments or completely misunderstood them. I'll just let it "lie in the yard" as they say. If people want to review this thread for my comments, I can only hope their comprehension skills will serve them better.

As for the comments I'm quoting you on here.....
First off you're misrepresenting my use of "big boy" from my earlier post, and I'd urge you to go back and review my use of it. It's just a derivative from the comment "get in touch with your inner big boy". In other words it means...be an adult, stay sharp and not act like an idiot. Statistically, if one conducts themselves in this way they can avoid trouble.
Secondly, was it sarcasm?...you bet. Was it borne out of contempt for gun owners? For some...you bet, but for most gun owners...no way!
In making your comments here, you forget that I'm not only a gun owner, but I'm an actual gun user. I personally know of no one that spends more days in the field hunting every season other than my hunting partner Bill. We are absolute fanatics about birdhunting and working the dogs. It's the reason I find my way to these forums as I'm not an offroader for offroading's sake kinda' guy. I like going out and exploring occasionally, but the main reason I own a 4wd vehicle has everything to do with access to native fish or birds.
My entries into this thread had to do with issues of vigilantism. The "Duke" and "gunslinger" monikers would be well deserved and well-matched by and for any civilians who would use their guns outside of the bounds of any States(pl.) intent for ownership or carry. Do I have contempt for gun owners who would do this?.....you bet! And, I'm not inclined to offer them my approval or support.

[cruiserlarry]

[quote="DaveK] Your inquiry as to why I must engage in name calling is easily answered. It’s generally the truth. [/quote]

That's sounds elitist to me - the arrogance to think you are the sole proprietor of the truth. My arguements are based on a lifetime of experience as well, and I've seen a different "truth" - I acknowledge not every gun owner is irresponsible, but there are a far greater number than you would like us to believe - that is the truth as I see it, and as do many responsible gun owners as well.


[quote="DaveK]If you are not an elitist, prove it. One wonders just how you would react if I went on a rant about 4WD stores, describing them all as cheats and frauds, because of a single bad experience at one store.[/quote]

Since you are unable to see the merit in any of my arguements, it would be a waste of my time to try to prove anything to you. This entire discussion would be mute if you had to prove your point - that's why it keeps going. While I appreicate the violent analogy for my passive rebuttals, I've thrown no grenades - just responded to blanketly vaporous commentary I find to be without factual basis, and like you, reponded with great resolve.

As for trying to disparage my reputation by trying to lump it in with an factually inaccurate assessment of an entire industry - I suggest to anyone interested to give it their best shot. That's the advantage to being honest, knowledgeable, and developing trust and confidence over the course of more than a quarter century. I have far less fear of anyone's ability to damage my reputation than I do of their judgement owning or using weapons.

Besides, that's what lawyers are for

[Dennis David]

I’m always amazed at how much animus is raised by these firearm posts. It makes me wonder why these topics are even posted knowing that nothing will ever get settled.

[DaveK]

That's sounds elitist to me - the arrogance to think you are the sole proprietor of the truth. My arguements are based on a lifetime of experience as well, and I've seen a different "truth" - I acknowledge not every gun owner is irresponsible, but there are a far greater number than you would like us to believe - that is the truth as I see it, and as do many responsible gun owners as well.

Larry:

If you would spend as much time reading my posts as you did slamming gun owners, you would not have to embarrass your self. Tell us where, in any of my posts, that I claimed to be the sole possessor of the truth. In this case, as with previous posts, I will let your comments stand on their own. I am pleased that you finally are willing to concede that not all gun owners are irresponsible but you are mistaken that your "lifetime of experience" enables you to know the facts or the truth. As an individual, who has spent his "lifetime" generally opposed to the private ownership of guns, and from all appearances, owns no guns, I doubt that your perspective is anywhere near as close to the "truth" as you claim it to be.

As for trying to disparage my reputation by trying to lump it in with an factually inaccurate assessment of an entire industry - I suggest to anyone interested to give it their best shot. That's the advantage to being honest, knowledgeable, and developing trust and confidence over the course of more than a quarter century.

Thank you!!!

Your, "bring it on attitude", which is borne out of your conviction that you are honest, is the same thing that I feel when someone, unfortunately like you, takes a cheap shot at gun owners. I will continue to stand up for the vast majority of gun owners who are responsible, safe, and honest. Like you, I will suggest to anyone interested, to give it their best shot.

[DaveK]

I’m always amazed at how much animus is raised by these firearm posts. It makes me wonder why these topics are even posted knowing that nothing will ever get settled.

3 reasons:

1. Entertainment

2. A good way to let off steam

3. Keyboard exercise

I guess that sooner or later, the truth would escape, and now, I suppose, is as good a time as any to let it out. Actually both Randy and I are life members of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. And, Larry.........well, you get the picture.

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