Outdoor Adventure USA

I don't believe you are alone here Larry and you make many logical points but in my opinion our rights are under assault and many gun owners, logical or not have just said enough is enough. I enjoy reading your, Dave and Steve's opinions and think it's great that you all are able to keep it civil while doing your best to get your points across regarding a subject dear to your hearts. Not many forums around where topics like this last very long without getting very ugly. I have not had time to do any of my own research but the statistic you (Larry) claim about the "most crimes committed using a gun are crimes of passion" is very interesting. I did not notice any rebuttal to this claim? This is an area where I could see the 10 day wait period really give an irrational person hinging on temporary insanity an opportunity to cool off. How does an instant background check stop a raging jealous husband or boyfriend if they aren't a felon? I would like to hear opinions contrary on this subject and more, as I find it very educational and if I may, entertaining too.

BorregoWrangler wrote:All we need now is a campfire, with favorite beverage in hand, to sit around and chat.

Boy, am I ready to kick back in Anza Borrego !!!

See ya'all there !!!

gon2srf wrote:I have not had time to do any of my own research but the statistic you (Larry) claim about the "most crimes committed using a gun are crimes of passion" is very interesting. I did not notice any rebuttal to this claim?

Actually, I questioned it. I have not been able to find a study to support that assertion, and I asked Larry if he could cite one.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/overview.htm

Scott, read the facts. Guns used in crimes of passion does happen, but it has been on the decline for years. The main issue with guns and homicide is teenage gangbangers. The statement about the crime of passion is a conclusory statement not supported by fact. Yet , it has been repeated for years by many anti gun groups. People just assume it is true. The FBI uniform crime stats is the most accurate info that I am aware of. The most common weapon in crimes of passion are the hands-many go unreported, but I see it daily.

Regards, Steve

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/intimate/circumstances.htm

Scott, the above post is for homicides. The cite here has additional info on violence between intimates. Just additional facts.

Regards, Steve

Ken-
Larry can't site any statistics to prove that statement because it is false. The FBI site will show you where the most gun crimes take place. It has been said so many times that people take it at face value. However, in larry's defense and those who make this claim, the media does perpetrate it by the coverage they give on deadly domestic disputes. As an aside, I truely appreciate the civil tone of the debate.

Regards, Steve

For anyone interested:

Here is an rebuttal to an article that was presented in the Civil Liberties Review, also published in the CLR, back in 1976. It expands upon many of the points I was less articulate in making, and concludes with a full page of citations for further reading and review.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Drinan1.html

Although this particular article is over thirty years old, the debate, and the arguments, have remained the same...

cruiserlarry wrote:For anyone interested:

Here is an rebuttal to an article that was presented in the Civil Liberties Review, also published in the CLR, back in 1976. It expands upon many of the points I was less articulate in making, and concludes with a full page of citations for further reading and review.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Drinan1.html

Although this particular article is over thirty years old, the debate, and the arguments, have remained the same...

The Drinan report and it's conclusions were discredited many years ago. What Larry forgot to tell you is that Drinin was, among his many other distinctions, the vice chair of the National Advisory Council of the ACLU, one of the most liberal members of congress (Massachusetts), and who was once known to say that, "no one can be certain of the origin of the current state of U.S. public morality".

An educated man who was quite ignorant of the history and foundation of the country where he served as a congressman. This report is a master piece of mis-information.

Scott,

Regarding the instant check vs 10 day, I don't have a good answer. There are stats which reflect that in states with instant check, the criminality of those who purchase the guns is minimal. However you bring up a good point. In my position, what I see is crimes of passion are committed immediately--no malice aforethought. Hence, the defendant is charged with 2nd degree murder. If one were to go down to the local gun store and purchase a gun with the specific intent to murder, whether instant or 10 days it would more likely be a 1st degree charge. I have not been able to find any studies or stats which indicate that a waiting period has reduced a criminal act. As seen by the FBI stats, the weapon of choice in assaults against intimates are the hands.

Hence, since it doesn't appear to reduce crime, it is in my opinion an unreasonable infringement on law abiding citizens rights. Just as an interesting note, during the riots many people flocked to gun stores to buy guns. There were lines around the block--it was on the news. These were not gun people, we had our weapons, but many non gun people who were scared. It was to me comical and these folks were interviewed coming out of the stores very upset. They couldn't believe they had to wait 10 days for a gun, because they needed it immediately to protect themselves. As they kept saying," How are we going to protect ourselves for the next ten days? Or--I thought only criminals had to wait, I'm not a criminal."

Regards, Steve

ssc wrote:Scott,

Regarding the instant check vs 10 day, I don't have a good answer. There are stats which reflect that in states with instant check, the criminality of those who purchase the guns is minimal. However you bring up a good point. In my position, what I see is crimes of passion are committed immediately--no malice aforethought. Hence, the defendant is charged with 2nd degree murder. If one were to go down to the local gun store and purchase a gun with the specific intent to murder, whether instant or 10 days it would more likely be a 1st degree charge. I have not been able to find any studies or stats which indicate that a waiting period has reduced a criminal act. As seen by the FBI stats, the weapon of choice in assaults against intimates are the hands.

Hence, since it doesn't appear to reduce crime, it is in my opinion an unreasonable infringement on law abiding citizens rights. Just as an interesting note, during the riots many people flocked to gun stores to buy guns. There were lines around the block--it was on the news. These were not gun people, we had our weapons, but many non gun people who were scared. It was to me comical and these folks were interviewed coming out of the stores very upset. They couldn't believe they had to wait 10 days for a gun, because they needed it immediately to protect themselves. As they kept saying," How are we going to protect ourselves for the next ten days? Or--I thought only criminals had to wait, I'm not a criminal."

Regards, Steve

Great information Steve and first hand at that. I remember the riots clearly, I was selling real estate in Long Beach and stayed home for several days as the violence continued. The video of Reginald Denny being stomped still makes my stomach churn.