APRS vs. SPOT tracking comparison...

[Chazz Layne]

Having played with APRS years ago, your point regarding the "local" or truck-to-truck aspect of APRS still has me wondering if for our purposes it isn't more of a novelty, or if it really adds an essential benefit.

I'd have to agree about it being more of a novelty, particularly at events like BorregoFest where the group is generally close enough together you can still see everyone. Fortunately the display of the radio I put in matches the factory stereo and climate controls almost perfectly, and there was no external clutter needed to get APRS running so no holes to worry about if I decide I have no interest down the road.

I did have a thought on it's usefulness in a local group talking with Dave about some of the hikes on our upcoming trip. We will be out far enough that cell-based internet is not likely, and some folks will be staying behind at camp while others are out on a day hike. I have APRS on my HT, so in theory the group at camp could track our progress out and back... provided the signal can get out of course. This should be a good test of it's usefulness in this kind of activity.

If it does work well, the group at camp will be able to predict our return time and have dinner on the table...

[xtatik]

If it does work well, the group at camp will be able to predict our return time and have dinner on the table...

Now that is what I call an "essential benefit"!

[cruiserlarry]

Having played with APRS years ago, your point regarding the "local" or truck-to-truck aspect of APRS still has me wondering if for our purposes it isn't more of a novelty, or if it really adds an essential benefit.

I was on an off -road outing where several trucks split up to locate a campground...long story short, one vehicle became severely disabled , and had only a ham radio...we spent over 2 hours triangulating to try and locate the rig...had that vehicle had APRS, we'd have located him in minutes...so, I think it can be very beneficial on the trail....

[xtatik]

Having played with APRS years ago, your point regarding the "local" or truck-to-truck aspect of APRS still has me wondering if for our purposes it isn't more of a novelty, or if it really adds an essential benefit.

I was on an off -road outing where several trucks split up to locate a campground...long story short, one vehicle became severely disabled , and had only a ham radio...we spent over 2 hours triangulating to try and locate the rig...had that vehicle had APRS, we'd have located him in minutes...so, I think it can be very beneficial on the trail....

Hmmm, you said the guy had a ham radio...2m/440 I assume. Did he have a map? Did he know where he was? If yes(I would hope), why didn't he simply tell you where he was? If his radio couldn't reach you...how could APRS have benefitted him? Or, maybe he was "mike shy"? Or worse, did he not know where he was, and perhaps would have been better off riding the couch that weekend studying up and acquiring some map and compass or GPS skills.

[DaveK]

APRS offers a unique set of tools that are more than just a novelty, if used properly. Far too many guys spend oodles of money on their APRS equipment just so that everyone can see them drive to work everyday. I don't mean for that to sound like a criticism, because everyone has the right to use the system as they please. The only drawback, of course, is that this type of use, occupies valuable space on the network that is very limited, to begin with.

That aside, APRS offers a two way form of communication that the SPOT or a PLB does not. While the coverage is not perfect, just as the SPOT's coverage is not perfect, it's capabilities are impressive. On our Parashant trip last year, we were over 100 miles from the nearest city and had quite good coverage for the entire trip. Our tracks are still available on APRS.fi. Additionally, we were in daily 2 way contact with Frank in Pasadena. Families can follow the progress that the APRS operator is making just as they would with the SPOT. AND, APRS operators can send messages, with any content (not predetermined like with the SPOT), and send them for family to read. Additionally, you can send regular email with APRS to anyone.

I believe that Larry is correct about the value of APRS in a vehicle to vehicle context as it allows the group to keep everyone on the right roads, especially where wrong turns are a risk. It is also valuable for the purpose of locating a downed vehicle, especially when the driver may not be able to give a position, such as when they are injured.

[xtatik]

APRS offers a unique set of tools that are more than just a novelty, if used properly. Far too many guys spend oodles of money on their APRS equipment just so that everyone can see them drive to work everyday. I don't mean for that to sound like a criticism, because everyone has the right to use the system as they please. The only drawback, of course, is that this type of use, occupies valuable space on the network that is very limited, to begin with.

That aside, APRS offers a two way form of communication that the SPOT or a PLB does not. While the coverage is not perfect, just as the SPOT's coverage is not perfect, it's capabilities are impressive. On our Parashant trip last year, we were over 100 miles from the nearest city and had quite good coverage for the entire trip. Our tracks are still available on APRS.fi. Additionally, we were in daily 2 way contact with Frank in Pasadena. Families can follow the progress that the APRS operator is making just as they would with the SPOT. AND, APRS operators can send messages, with any content (not predetermined like with the SPOT), and send them for family to read. Additionally, you can send regular email with APRS to anyone.

I believe that Larry is correct about the value of APRS in a vehicle to vehicle context as it allows the group to keep everyone on the right roads, especially where wrong turns are a risk. It is also valuable for the purpose of locating a downed vehicle, especially when the driver may not be able to give a position, such as when they are injured.

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Well Dave, you've covered a lot here. But, you've washed over a few things.
For one, being a hundred miles from a city is a bit different than being a hundred miles from a repeater...and being a hundred miles from a repeater is pretty easy to do.
I chase a few rare Cutthroats in some semi-remote parts of Nevada. The Monitor Range and Alta Toquima WA in central Nevada has quite a few repeaters in the area that one would think are in range. Well, sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not. Sometimes they aren't even functioning. The thing about repeaters in remote areas is that they don't get the service and maintenance our suburban repeaters do. When I only had a Tech license I'd study the repeater listings and program in the repeaters that were local to where I planned to travel. Far too many times I'd arrive to find out the listed repeaters were non-funct....useless!
As for the "wrong turn" scenario...IMO, that would be a result of inexperienced travelers....not necessarily the one getting lost or making the wrong turn. It would be a poor reflection on the entire group. Their are some common sense rules for trail travel whether on foot or wheels. If I were leading a group where someone had made a wrong turn, after resolving the issue, I'd be extremely embarrassed and angy with myself. I'd also have words with the vehicle just ahead of and/or just behind the lost vehicle. If someone is missing or hurt someone else should imeediately know the how, when, where and why. There are no justifications for that happening.
As for the ability to communicate with non-hams....here you have a good point. That is a benefit. With a network of people I can check in with...I guess I just don't appreciate it as I should. Lettin' momma' know yer' still kickin' is a good thing.

[DaveK]

Well Dave, you've covered a lot here. But, you've washed over a few things.
For one, being a hundred miles from a city is a bit different than being a hundred miles from a repeater...and being a hundred miles from a repeater is pretty easy to do.
I chase a few rare Cutthroats in some semi-remote parts of Nevada. The Monitor Range and Alta Toquima WA in central Nevada has quite a few repeaters in the area that one would think are in range. Well, sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not. Sometimes they aren't even functioning. The thing about repeaters in remote areas is that they don't get the service and maintenance our suburban repeaters do. When I only had a Tech license I'd study the repeater listings and program in the repeaters that were local to where I planned to travel. Far too many times I'd arrive to find out the listed repeaters were non-funct....useless!
As for the "wrong turn" scenario...IMO, that would be a result of inexperienced travelers....not necessarily the one getting lost or making the wrong turn. It would be a poor reflection on the entire group. Their are some common sense rules for trail travel whether on foot or wheels. If I were leading a group where someone had made a wrong turn, after resolving the issue, I'd be extremely embarrassed and angy with myself. I'd also have words with the vehicle just ahead of and/or just behind the lost vehicle. If someone is missing or hurt someone else should know the how, when, where and why. There are no justifications for that happening.
As for the ability to communicate with non-hams....here you have a good point. That is a benefit. With a network of people I can check in with...I guess I just don't appreciate it as I should. Lettin' momma' know yer' still kickin' is a good thing.

Randy:

We had great success reaching repeaters well over 100 miles away, but the beauty of APRS is that it isn't necessary to have the repeaters logged into your rig in order to enjoy the benefits of APRS. On our trip, many of the repeaters we hit were on the tall peaks, as you would expect, that were near large cities such as Las Vegas NV (about 110 miles), Cedar City UT (about 120 miles), Kingman AZ (about 60 miles), Lake Havasu City AZ (about 115 miles) and others. I would presume that these are repeaters that receive the same or similar service and repair attention that the tall peak repeaters in the LA area get. You are correct though, that repeaters do have a tendency to disappear on occasion.

I wish I could insure that everyone in our group keeps the drivers in front and behind in view, but things happen even in the best of groups, and it can be a real trip saver, or at least a head-ache reliever, to get someone back on track quickly. This capability can be extremely useful in areas that are not well known to the group.

You are partially correct that there is no justification for these types of things happening. Unfortunately, they do happen, and they happen despite the best of intentions and sometimes, the best planning. We would do well to prepare for contingencies that are foreseeable.

[cruiserlarry]

Hmmm, you said the guy had a ham radio...2m/440 I assume. Did he have a map? Did he know where he was? If yes(I would hope), why didn't he simply tell you where he was? If his radio couldn't reach you...how could APRS have benefited him? Or, maybe he was "mike shy"? Or worse, did he not know where he was, and perhaps would have been better off riding the couch that weekend studying up and acquiring some map and compass or GPS skills.

Well, I guess criticism is in order, but careful throwing stones from glass houses...I've seen and read about many well-equipped folks getting lost or in trouble despite their training, especially if tired or stressed from frustration or injury...

His radio DID reach us...that's how we triangulated his signal and found him...he had no GPS, and he, unfortunately, didn't have a map....of course a map only helps in unmarked areas if you know your general location, and if you can identify landmarks, and if you have light...we were in an area with no trail markings due to brush overgrowth, and no clear path to his assumed location, and the sun was setting. Of course, we could debate if his preparation was adequate (obviously not), or if this was well planned (it was spontaneous, so no it was not), but the point was he was in trouble and we needed to find him. Since his radio worked, and we had him talk as we parked two vehicles, and drove two vehicles in different directions to monitor relative signal strength. Had he had an APRS system operative, we'd have his exact location in minutes, whether or not he could talk, and could work on finding the path he took to get there.

Should this situation have occurred - no. Does everything always work according to plan - no. Is APRS a gimmick, or does it offer benefits - in my opinion, it is a useful tool, and as long as I'm running a ham rig, I will run APRS, because it might help...

[xtatik]

Well Dave, you've covered a lot here. But, you've washed over a few things.
For one, being a hundred miles from a city is a bit different than being a hundred miles from a repeater...and being a hundred miles from a repeater is pretty easy to do.
I chase a few rare Cutthroats in some semi-remote parts of Nevada. The Monitor Range and Alta Toquima WA in central Nevada has quite a few repeaters in the area that one would think are in range. Well, sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not. Sometimes they aren't even functioning. The thing about repeaters in remote areas is that they don't get the service and maintenance our suburban repeaters do. When I only had a Tech license I'd study the repeater listings and program in the repeaters that were local to where I planned to travel. Far too many times I'd arrive to find out the listed repeaters were non-funct....useless!
As for the "wrong turn" scenario...IMO, that would be a result of inexperienced travelers....not necessarily the one getting lost or making the wrong turn. It would be a poor reflection on the entire group. Their are some common sense rules for trail travel whether on foot or wheels. If I were leading a group where someone had made a wrong turn, after resolving the issue, I'd be extremely embarrassed and angy with myself. I'd also have words with the vehicle just ahead of and/or just behind the lost vehicle. If someone is missing or hurt someone else should know the how, when, where and why. There are no justifications for that happening.
As for the ability to communicate with non-hams....here you have a good point. That is a benefit. With a network of people I can check in with...I guess I just don't appreciate it as I should. Lettin' momma' know yer' still kickin' is a good thing.

Randy:

We had great success reaching repeaters well over 100 miles away, but the beauty of APRS is that it isn't necessary to have the repeaters logged into your rig in order to enjoy the benefits of APRS. On our trip, many of the repeaters we hit were on the tall peaks, as you would expect, that were near large cities such as Las Vegas NV (about 110 miles), Cedar City UT (about 120 miles), Kingman AZ (about 60 miles), Lake Havasu City AZ (about 115 miles) and others. I would presume that these are repeaters that receive the same or similar service and repair attention that the tall peak repeaters in the LA area get. You are correct though, that repeaters do have a tendency to disappear on occasion.

I wish I could insure that everyone in our group keeps the drivers in front and behind in view, but things happen even in the best of groups, and it can be a real trip saver, or at least a head-ache reliever, to get someone back on track quickly. This capability can be extremely useful in areas that are not well known to the group.

You are partially correct that there is no justification for these types of things happening. Unfortunately, they do happen, and they happen despite the best of intentions and sometimes, the best planning. We would do well to prepare for contingencies that are foreseeable.

It's good to know there is that kind of coverage in that area....It's not what I would expect. I do understand that a constant link is unnecessary and I also know the digital signal has advantages over phone in getting more distance and being more readable/accurate at a distance....no different than digital on HF. I also agree that contingencies are good when someone gets detached. But, unless they've been detached for a significant time, I still struggle with why someone couldn't/wouldn't simply pick up the mike and say something like..."Uh, guys.....I think I'm lost....Uh guys, where did you turn?...did you guys turn or go straight back there"? The microphone is a contingency to all other good practice on the trail.
If the guy has APRS, that means he has a radio. If he has a radio, that usually means he has a microphone. If he has a microphone, that would tell me he's probably not suffering a speech impediment (not too bad I'd assume).
Now, if the guy made a wrong turn and the bridge was out......Well then, it's APRS to the rescue. But seriously, what are the odds?
See, I'm still not convinced it's nothing more than a novelty for the average ham, even within our pastime. For emergency services, wildland fire, SAR, it has tremendous benefits. Being able to coordinate teams and visually see where teams have scoured over the course of a days or weeks long search or suppression effort is HUGE! Other than that, it's nowhere near necessary and just plain fun stuff and there's nothing wrong with that.


edit: Duly noted...Larry, your comment on throwing stones.... Gawd help me now I don't get caught without a map....better brush up on my dead reckoning and divining skills.

[cruiserlarry]

I still struggle with why someone couldn't/wouldn't simply pick up the mike and say something like..."Uh, guys.....I think I'm lost....Uh guys, where did you turn?...did you guys turn or go straight back there"?

Duly noted...Larry, your comment on throwing stones.... Gawd help me now I don't get caught without a map....better brush up on my dead reckoning and divining skills.

Randy, I apologize if that came off wrong - I meant no insult to you. But your comment about "just pick up the mike say something" isn't based, IMO, on the reality of back country trails. I have been out at night in unfamiliar territory with folks who made a wrong turn while sightseeing, or whatever...and became very disoriented without being far away. Most times, a little communication on the radio will do it..but not always, and APRS could help in those cases. Just one more "tool in the toolkit"...