Arizona Enacts “Constitutional Carry” For Firearms

[DaveK]

I think a couple of important side notes: None of the states in question have high population densities in the overwhelming majority of their territory. Alaska is definitely a unique environment relative to any other state; Texas has it for traveling; Even Montana, with one of the lowest populations of any state, still prohibits this in it's cities.

The other note of interest (to me, at least): The most active threads in the last few months on this forum are firearms threads. I think this is a shame. I understand it's relativity to hunting, and protection in the great outdoors; but open carry in cities? CCWs ? I'm just saddened that the gun enthusiast here don't have more to share in other areas that might be more in line with the main focus of OAUSA - Outdoor Adventures. While I know gun regulations can be of importance to the enthusiast, the posting of every new legislative issue regarding firearms seems a little over-weighted here, IMO. I'd like to see this forum attract people with other outdoor interests besides handguns; and I do believe this focus might actually be dissuading many from joining - not every outdoorsman is a gun person, and not all who don't care for guns are vocal.

I agree. It kinda' goes with the territory though. As a nearly rabid upland bird hunter I have absolutely no problem with guns or gun ownership. I do have problems with many and nearly most of their owners, legal or not. IMO, many show very poor skills with handling and safety.....I firmly believe the anti-control mantra that "guns don't kill people...people kill people", and that's what worries me most. With a broad spread ability to carry, concealed or not, even amongst the law-abiding I could see complacency set in just as it does when people get behind the wheel of a car (just as lethal). Everyday law-abiding people kill other law-abiding people by accident, because we allow nearly anyone to pass a driving test and meet certain requirements.

Well, DaveK, I have now found a gun owner with common sense. I feel vindicated that it's not only those of us who are not gun fans that have reasonable concerns regarding our safety IF folks are allowed to carry weapons where ever they choose, whenever they choose. Thanks, Randy

You are very much mistaken if you think that you are the only one who possesses this level of common sense or that has reasonable concerns for safety. Please don't flatter yourself that only people who are "not gun fans" are capable of these qualities. Even gun owners whose intelligence level is average, are concerned about safety.

What this proves is that the "blood bath" hysteria, that is so often used against the right to carry, is simply a hoax.

[ssc]

Larry, post up subjects that you would like to see in this forum, if you don't like what other members post. This is a forum sub section for firearms. Hence, I do not understand why you dislike the posts, which do relate to firearms. AZ does have major cities and has been a shallisuue state for many years. Yet, only 2% of the population has a ccw, or I should say 158000 ccw permits have been issued and many of them have been issued to non-residents. I don't think much will change--AZ has had open carry of loaded guns for years. The training class for the ccw is more a learning of the laws class. I do support anyone getting training, however, it is and should be voluntary. I am concerned about people having a gun and not being trained or safe. However, even the most highly trained people have accidents-whether it be with guns, cars, or construction. Most airplane accidents are due to pilot error. Anyway, I look forward to you starting some posts in the firearm forum which you deem important-and I say this with all sincerity.

Now the statement above from Randy, that you have no problem with guns or gun ownership, but have a problem with nearly all gun owners has me stumped. What should all guns be kept locked away and what training do you have or do you suggest? Are you concerned about your gunhandling skills? Are you saying, according to you that 90% of gunowners don't know what they are doing? What are you saying? Sounds to me like if you had your way, no gunowners could have guns because they have bad gun handling skills. I don't know who you are seeing handle guns. Are you exemping yourself from this group? I might think you are in that group. For what it's worth, I have been shot at least 6 times by idiots with shotguns hunting doves and or pheasant. Should I say that all people who own shotguns and or who hunt birds with shotguns should not be allowed to own guns or hunt due to this experience?

I await the other threads--maybe a what to carry when wheeling in bear/lion country or best snakeshot.

Regards, Steve

[xtatik]

You are very much mistaken if you think that you are the only one who possesses this level of common sense or that has reasonable concerns for safety. Please don't flatter yourself that only people who are "not gun fans" are capable of these qualities. Even gun owners whose intelligence level is average, are concerned about safety.

What this proves is that the "blood bath" hysteria, that is so often used against the right to carry, is simply a hoax.

Dave,
I'm not flattering myself in any way. I am a gun fan....own several in fact. I'm also not assuming anything regarding those that pursue the carrying privilege, and that is directly to my point. I am not willing to assume anything of someone who is carrying a loaded gun. I don't want to have the burden of having to discern who is the nuklhed with a gun or who is the guy who has a strong history with gun safety and I don't necessarily trust an agency to discern them either. I have my own standards, and I have a right to those standards. Except for the few guys I trust to hunt with, I don't want that worry.
I don't believe I've ever demonstrated a tendency toward hysteria. There is certainly nothing in my prior post that even remotely leans this direction. If you are referring to my comparison involving drivers licenses and accidental road deaths......there are statistics.....I'm certain you're aware. But, I don't think I'd ever resort to the word "bloodbath". Also, I don't think my comments prove anything in your arguments favor. I'll concede that those who are vehemently opposed will resort to histrionic over-the-top language in attempts to propel their cause. But, I also know the NRA, others of the same bent, are no less guilty of the same, which is why this "gun fan" summarily round files their junkmail.
I don't think it's a stretch to assume that if all persons were carrying loaded weapons that accidents would increase. That would defy all logic. Accidents happen amongst even the lowest probability scenarios. Increasing probability will increase occurrence. This is Critical Thinking 101 and many parallels in many societies have proven this time and again, whether it's automobiles, guns or playing with matches.

[xtatik]

Now the statement above from Randy, that you have no problem with guns or gun ownership, but have a problem with nearly all gun owners has me stumped. What should all guns be kept locked away and what training do you have or do you suggest? Are you concerned about your gunhandling skills? Are you saying, according to you that 90% of gunowners don't know what they are doing? What are you saying? Sounds to me like if you had your way, no gunowners could have guns because they have bad gun handling skills. I don't know who you are seeing handle guns. Are you exemping yourself from this group? I might think you are in that group. For what it's worth, I have been shot at least 6 times by idiots with shotguns hunting doves and or pheasant. Should I say that all people who own shotguns and or who hunt birds with shotguns should not be allowed to own guns or hunt due to this experience?

I await the other threads--maybe a what to carry when wheeling in bear/lion country or best snakeshot.

Regards, Steve

SSC
Ok, I'll start from the top and try to combine your questions in these answers:
Yes, of anyone I don't know that is handling a gun....I assume they know nothing......just as I assume all guns are loaded. If I know you or I've been in the field with you and know your history in handling guns I may feel more (or less) comfortable.
Yes, all guns should be locked away when not in use....Mine are now. To me this is a gun handling skill or responsible behavior that all gun owners should adhere to.
Yes, I am always concerned with my gun handling skills. I'd advise you be just as diligent.
Yes, I am exempting myself from this group....because I know my history in handling guns.
Yes, absolutely, you should assume I am in this group and that I am completely clueless until you know my history in handling guns.
Yes, you should assume the dove hunters who shot in your direction are idiots undeserving of the right to own their guns... no question! You were being a little unfair here in that the real question is regarding open or concealed carry and not the right to own. I never challenged the right to own, and wouldn't. I'm just not a fan of the right to carry them in all situations.

And for what it's worth, I have actually been shot. Getting rained on with shot is more common. Some right it off to being part of the sport....I don't.
In fact Dave knows exactly the place where I was shot. It was in the wash just below Bullock Springs in the MNP. We'd talked about this area a few months ago. I was fortunate enough to have the time to turn my back partially before being hit. It wiped out the hydration bladder in my brand new Quilomene vest and I'm glad it did. I was hit in numerous places fortunately from enough distance that most didn't penetrate, but I still have a couple 7-1/2's lodged just above my left elbow. These guys were not in our group and they were very apologetic...I was seriously ticked off and stood there dishing out my foulest verbal judo with a water stain (from my vest) that made it look liked I'd pissed my pants......I'm not sure I didn't.
They left.

Honestly, do any of these basic principles (at least in my book) differ that greatly from what is taught in most gun/hunter safety courses?
I didn't let my daughter drive off in just anyones car and I don't throw caution to the wind in approaching a dog I haven't sized up either. This should be common sense stuff.

[DaveK]

Dave,
I'm not flattering myself in any way. I am a gun fan....own several in fact. I'm also not assuming anything regarding those that pursue the carrying privilege, and that is directly to my point. I am not willing to assume anything of someone who is carrying a loaded gun. I don't want to have the burden of having to discern who is the nuklhed with a gun or who is the guy who has a strong history with gun safety and I don't necessarily trust an agency to discern them either. I have my own standards, and I have a right to those standards. Except for the few guys I trust to hunt with, I don't want that worry.
I don't believe I've ever demonstrated a tendency toward hysteria. There is certainly nothing in my prior post that even remotely leans this direction. If you are referring to my comparison involving drivers licenses and accidental road deaths......there are statistics.....I'm certain you're aware. But, I don't think I'd ever resort to the word "bloodbath". Also, I don't think my comments prove anything in your arguments favor. I'll concede that those who are vehemently opposed will resort to histrionic over-the-top language in attempts to propel their cause. But, I also know the NRA, others of the same bent, are no less guilty of the same, which is why this "gun fan" summarily round files their junkmail.
I don't think it's a stretch to assume that if all persons were carrying loaded weapons that accidents would increase. That would defy all logic. Accidents happen amongst even the lowest probability scenarios. Increasing probability will increase occurrence. This is Critical Thinking 101 and many parallels in many societies have proven this time and again, whether it's automobiles, guns or playing with matches.

Randy:

My fault. The comments were not directed at you. They were a response to cruiserlarry's statement that, "I have now found a gun owner with common sense". I should have been more careful about how much of the quoted material I include.

[cruiserlarry]

You are very much mistaken if you think that you are the only one who possesses this level of common sense or that has reasonable concerns for safety. Please don't flatter yourself that only people who are "not gun fans" are capable of these qualities. Even gun owners whose intelligence level is average, are concerned about safety.

What this proves is that the "blood bath" hysteria, that is so often used against the right to carry, is simply a hoax.

I don't think it's a stretch to assume that if all persons were carrying loaded weapons that accidents would increase. That would defy all logic. Accidents happen amongst even the lowest probability scenarios. Increasing probability will increase occurrence. This is Critical Thinking 101

Well, Dave, your retort is not based on what I said. I said common sense, not concern for safety, and Randy's remark demonstrates that to me. I also did not say "all" of anything, as there are intelligent folks and idiots on both sides of this issue. And in regard to the "blood bath hysteria", I don't subscribe to that theory, and have never supported that position. I do believe there will be more "accidental" or "shootings of passion" if large numbers of civilians within a densely populated area with other tensions in play are allowed to walk around armed. Could I be wrong in my belief ? Unlike your position, which is always unwavering despite indicators in society, I realize I might be wrong. However, the main point of this, to me , is about public safety. If enough people feel threatened by this, the fear, even if unsubstantiated by past events, is still real, and needs to be dealt with in a rational manner. After all, it is fear, IMO, that leads most to demand the right to arm themselves anywhere anytime.

Larry, post up subjects that you would like to see in this forum, if you don't like what other members post. This is a forum sub section for firearms. Hence, I do not understand why you dislike the posts, which do relate to firearms.

Steve, I didn't suggest removing firearms discussion from this thread or this forum. I just thought the discussion would be more towards the use, training, and various types of firearms as they relate to the outdoorsman - which might help educate and enlighten members and lurkers, and be more in line with the theme of OAUSA in general. If you missed it, even I participate regularly on this subject - just seems to have gone off the deep end relative to open carry and ccw, as opposed to an outdoor hobby / hunting discussions.

For what it's worth, I have been shot at least 6 times by idiots with shotguns hunting doves and or pheasant. Should I say that all people who own shotguns and or who hunt birds with shotguns should not be allowed to own guns or hunt due to this experience?

Well, at the least I'd certainly be concerned about the regulations that allow those particular people to be out there without proper skills or training. I am disturbed that being shot in the course of participating in a hobby had no affect on your concerns about those who are participating with you. At what level of irresponsibility do you become concerned ? When I raced cars, a bad driver absolutely got my attention, and made me think twice if his lack of skill was worth my life. Did I stop driving - no. Would I support stricter rules for verifying or requiring driver skill levels - absolutely.

Would you have been shot any of those six times if not in the vicinity of others of unknown skill and training who were armed ?

While I know better, your statements might lead one to believe you hold a higher regard for your gun rights than your safety around them, despite your experience. Not comforting at all.

[xtatik]

Steve, I didn't suggest removing firearms discussion from this thread or this forum. I just thought the discussion would be more towards the use, training, and various types of firearms as they relate to the outdoorsman - which might help educate and enlighten members and lurkers, and be more in line with the theme of OAUSA in general. If you missed it, even I participate regularly on this subject - just seems to have gone off the deep end relative to open carry and ccw, as opposed to an outdoor hobby / hunting discussions.

That's right....but let's refrain from all the safety stuff for a bit. What we need is some Field and Streamy stuff. Yep, what I need is some education and enlightenment as to where all the coveys and guzzlers are. Come on don't be shy.....(BTW, I prefer GPS coord's). I really wish I could share mine with ya' cuz I don't write them down...but I would if I did....honest! I really would!


edit: and Dave....no prob!

[ssc]

Randy,
I think we have had a failure to communicate and I will take the blame. I agree 100% with your post number 14. I always assume someones gunhandling skills are substandard until proven otherwise. I had gotten the impression from the prior post that you felt 90% of all gun owners should not be allowed to have guns.

Larry, please start a thread that you thick is appropriate. I would gladly join in. I have offered to many on this board to come out to the range for information and informative shooting classes. All the people who I got peppered by should have had a hunting license and gone through a hunters safety program. You can't fix stupid. However, I don't blame the gun, like I don't blame the car or beer or the bar for some idiot who drives drunk and injures people. If someone exhibits these traits, then it is their rights that should be restricted, not mine nor yours. I do not want you or me to be punished for some idiots action. It was no fun removing number 8's from my cheek and shoulder on different occasions. Thankfully I always had on glasses.

Lastly, Randy if you want quail you can sit in my driveway in Havasu and count them as they run by. They are my little buddy's. I will be hanging the quail crossing sign soon.

Time to get a few minutes of sleep-only had a couple of hours during the past 60 hours, but this thread has been good to take my mind off other things.

Regards, Steve

[Chazz Layne]

I just thought the discussion would be more towards the use, training, and various types of firearms as they relate to the outdoorsman - which might help educate and enlighten members and lurkers, and be more in line with the theme of OAUSA in general. If you missed it, even I participate regularly on this subject - just seems to have gone off the deep end relative to open carry and ccw, as opposed to an outdoor hobby / hunting discussions.

Now that sounds like a great idea. I know I'd love to hear the group's thoughts, both on hunting/sporting and defense in the outdoors (after all, it is a very different issue in the wilderness vs. the city). If someone doesn't beat me to it I'll post up some of the scenarios I've been pondering when I get back home.


Back on the open carry vs. concealed carry concerns, at least as they pertain to an urban environment, I'll admit that even I am a little uneasy with open carry in that scenario... though probably for different reasons. The old saying "out of sight, out of mind" comes to... mind. I am one of those folks that carries everywhere they are legally able to do so, and I do feel that much safer for it. I also almost never carry openly, and absolutely never in an urban area. The main reason for that is I don't want to paint a big ole target on my back. Should something go down in a public place (such as the shootings seen in the news all too often) I do not want to be the first one shot, because I was singled out of the crowd, because I was openly displaying the fact that I carry the tools to defend myself and those around me. To me, it just seems as silly as walking down the street from the ATM counting the money you just pulled out... it's just asking for trouble IMO. There are other reasons of course, from the comfort of others to simple weapon retention, but that one is the most important to me.

I too think that more training should be required for those that choose to exercise the "bear" half of that right. However, I also feel that things like basic marksmanship and firearm safety should be taught in high school, just like they have driver's ed classes (which should also be drastically improved ). I look to the Swiss for a good example of how well this can work, and how safe of an environment this creates (not only from crime, but also from invasion). If I'm not mistaken, they still issue one rifle to each household... if only our bailout money could have gone that-a-way instead (and towards proper training, of course).

Lastly, Randy if you want quail you can sit in my driveway in Havasu and count them as they run by. They are my little buddy's. I will be hanging the quail crossing sign soon.

Isn't it great how all the fat ones come out to mock us right after quail season ends?

[xtatik]

Lastly, Randy if you want quail you can sit in my driveway in Havasu and count them as they run by. They are my little buddy's. I will be hanging the quail crossing sign soon.

Yeah, they're my little buddies too. I just love the little guys.