Stopped for Open Carrying in California

[Jaytil]

if I present any questionable public appearance

"If" Larry? Really? I think we all know you present a very questionable public appearance...especially with those OAUSA shirts on and all those FJ people you hang out with...not to mention those neighbors of yours.

[cruiserlarry]

While this may be true for a very few, I think you might be drinking the propoganda kool-aid if you are expecting anyone to believe those who support OC are doing so for educational or socially conscientious purposes...come in, that is ridiculous.

Like I said, different people, different reasons. It's not ridiculous, Larry. It's very true. Yes, self-defense is probably the biggest reason and I don't think anyone does so in order to by chance assist the police.

I'm sure that I'm not going too far out on a limb here to say that you've never openly carried a firearm in public. I have. Have you ever seen or been around anyone OC'ing in public? I have and let me tell you, no one really notices or seems to care.

John -

You are disputing your own points, and agreeing with mine...so I can't rebutt that.

It is ridiculous - You're going to tell me what I've seen or not seen ? Ridiculous statement.

An avid gun proponent telling an non-fan that he won't notice guns in public ? Ridiculous statement.

The fact that you, as a gun owner, don't mind guns in public does not correlate in any way to anything I might have seen or felt. Ridiculous statement.

And carrying guns in public is a God-given right ? now you have definitely stepped off the deep end...Ridiculous statement, indeed

[BorregoWrangler]

...Just Sayin, Steve

Well said, Steve. I have to agree.

John -
You are disputing your own points, and agreeing with mine...so I can't rebutt that.
And it is ridiculous - You're going to tell me what I've seen or not seen ? Ridiculous.
An avid gun proponent telling an non-fan that he won't notice guns in public ? Ridiculous.
The fact that you, as a gun owner, don't mind guns in public does not correlate in any way to anything I might have seen or felt.
And carrying guns in public is a God-given right ? now you have definitely stepped off the deep end...RIDICULOUS, INDEED

Larry, your post here makes no sense at all and you're putting words in my mouth. You said that a certain aspect of OC (the reasons why some may do it) was ridiculous and I countered that. You said yourself that you don't support OC, so you're bias on the issue and have no ground to stand on when it comes to stating why others engage in an activity that you are against. I've been around OC and have talked with countless individuals about the subject. I know, firsthand why some people do this and when I pointed that out you just dismissed it. There's no cool-aid. Having a difference of opinion is just fine here, but let's just tone it down a bit.

[cruiserlarry]

Larry, your post here makes no sense at all and you're putting words in my mouth. You said that a certain aspect of OC (the reasons why some may do it) was ridiculous and I countered that. You said yourself that you don't support OC, so you're bias on the issue and have no ground to stand on when it comes to stating why others engage in an activity that you are against. I've been around OC and have talked with countless individuals about the subject. I know, firsthand why some people do this and when I pointed that out you just dismissed it. There's no cool-aid. Having a difference of opinion is just fine here, but let's just tone it down a bit.

Suggesting that I tone down my responses to statements you made is a little over the top, IMHO. I suggest you re-read your posts. My comments are always directed at the message - not the messenger.

To suggest that someone who is on the opposite side of an issue has no grounds for their statements because of bias, is well....(toned down) - of course I disagree because of my bias. Your position is biased, too - and could be valid, even if I disagree. You stated you know why some participate in OC; that doesn't extrapolate to all of those with whom you've never encountered, especially considering the majority of those who would be afforded this privilege in CA have no more direct experience with OC than I do.

No matter how much time you spend around an activity, that experience alone doesn't make you informed or an expert - merely an observer. I respect the experience you might have had, but it doesn't have any affect on the impact of that event to others. Although I have no direct experience, I am not a proponent of leaping off tall buildings, as I have good reason to suspect the results are not good. It is possible to create informed, valid points of view without any direct experience in the event itself. I feel this can be true with regard to many things, and in my "experience" the OC issue qualifies.

As to your suggestion that the whole OC issue might disappear if CCPs were easier to obtain in CA, well to me that's a shame; each issue should be decided on it's own merits, and one should not be used to leverage a decision where public policy and safety are concerned. That only suggests, to me, that the issue has no standing on it's own, but just as a means to pressure the lessor of two evils...

[BorregoWrangler]

I would never say that someone's statement here is ridiculous or that they have gone off the deep end.

The God-given rights I spoke of is a principle of the traditional american philosophy. Unalienable rights. As in, we all have the right to defend our lives and the lives of our loved ones.

The experience one might have in any particular matter may or may not make them an expert but we can be sure that their point of view on the matter will hold much more weight than someone who has no direct experience in the matter itself.

I did had to laugh at the analogy of carrying firearms to jumping off buildings. This and the "lessor of two evils" comment as regards open or concealed carry is IMHO way over the top.

[cruiserlarry]

The God-given rights I spoke of is a principle of the traditional american philosophy. Unalienable rights. As in, we all have the right to defend our lives and the lives of our loved ones.

I did had to laugh at the analogy of carrying firearms to jumping off buildings. This and the "lessor of two evils" comment as regards open or concealed carry is IMHO way over the top.

Well, American Tradition is based on the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. While I am not an authority on religion, there is nothing in any religious documents suggesting God asserts any individual the right to own or display firearms - this is a privilege that has been assigned by the U.S. Constitution to U.S. citizens under certain circumstances which have been the subject of debate for the entire history of this country.

Regarding your feeling that my analogy was over the top or humorous, well, that's where your bias shows to me - the building analogy is identical to the statement you made regarding my views on open carry, and the lessor of two evils comment was based on your statement that one issue could be used to pressure the adoption of another issue, both of which could (notice I said could and not would) have detrimental consequences to the public at large. Both sides of this debate have serious concerns, and I certainly find nothing funny about yours; in fact, your level of sincerity on the issue is why folks like me are so concerned.

I know most folks on this thread will feel my views and statements are ridiculous - and I'm OK with that. Many well-respected people throughout history had ideas that were considered ridiculous by there peers, so I'll be in good company

[BorregoWrangler]

Well said, Larry. However, the only other thing I would like to point out is that I said "if obtaining a concealed carry permit in CA was easier, then that's what most people would do and open carry would cease to really being an issue at all."

...and the lessor of two evils comment was based on your statement that one issue could be used to pressure the adoption of another issue, both of which could (notice I said could and not would) have detrimental consequences to the public at large.

That has nothing to with one issue (open carry) being used to pressure the adoption of another issue (concealed carry). This is just the way things would probably go. Both issues can stand one their own merits. It would likely mean that we'd probably be hearing a lot less about the OCM on the news. One thing you need to keep in mind is that the main issue here (to me anyway) is allowing law-abiding people the ability to defend themselves. Open or concealed- it doesn't matter. It's just such a shame that folks living here in California have less freedom in that regard when compared to other states.

I would be interested in hearing what measures people here take to protect themselves while out adventuring. I myself always have some sort of firearm when I'm out exploring, especially in remote areas. All other times I'll have either a fixed or folding blade. The knife carry laws aren't nearly as complex. With me I guess it comes down to rather having it and not needing it, than needing it and not having it.

[ssc]

It seems this thread has run its course. However, I tend to think most OC is to draw attention and not so the OC person can defend themselves. If one has ammo on them, they are risking a legality issue. Criminals, or someone who is intent on doing you harm will just amend their plan. Review the Tuller drill. I would venture to say that most of the OC folks couldn't recognize a situation, react, draw and load and place an aimed shot in under 5 seconds. By then they will be cut to pieces. I would guess most would be closer to 10 seconds. A trained shootist can perform the draw and load and fire--without the need to react to a life and death situation and make a decision, in about 2 seconds. I would venture that most of them are not trained nor even have the right mindset to use deadly force. This is a touchy subject for me, because I know of people who haved failed under dire circumstances and paid for it with their life. Others just were injured or made it out alive due to intervention. This has happened to people who had training, but the wrong mindset and or people who thought they had the mindset, but lacking in skills or just folks who thought they were able.

Hence, this self defense thing doesn't fly to me, because of my experience and background. If they come under an attack it will probably be quick and close and violent-they will never have the time nor ability to use the gun as anything except maybe a club. Second, if they think they will intervene in situations, then another mistake. Their job is to safequard family and loved ones and leave the area, without gun play. My fav is to ask people who carry," You are in the mall and see 25 ft in front of you a man pointing a gun at another man. What do you do?" The responses shock me. "If I can get a clear shot, I will shot the guy." So you shot an undercover cop? "YOU didn't say that." There are so many possibilities--hence, get out of there if you can safely do so.

John, I like the question you proposed about protection out on the trail. Please start a separate thread. For the single guy out adventuring-a condom and shotgun?

Regards, Steve

[Dennis David]

It's not just California compared to other states but also within California from county to county that the issuance of CCW varies so much. I don't really want to add to the discussion/argument but I should point out that the California Open Carry Organization states quite clearly that one of "three main reasons to Open Carry". Which I assume they mean their promotion of open carry is in their words "As a form of legal civil protest of unconstitutional firearms laws and CCW issuance policies."

I won't say any more except to go on record to state that:

1. I don't feel that Larry's statements are in any way ridiculous
2. I support a "Shall-Issue" policy but I am not comfortable with Open Carry

[cruiserlarry]

John, I like the question you proposed about protection out on the trail. Please start a separate thread. For the single guy out adventuring-a condom and shotgun?

I would be interested in hearing what measures people here take to protect themselves while out adventuring. I myself always have some sort of firearm when I'm out exploring, especially in remote areas. All other times I'll have either a fixed or folding blade. The knife carry laws aren't nearly as complex. With me I guess it comes down to rather having it and not needing it, than needing it and not having it.

I think we've finally evolved to a possible thread topic that would truly be of great interest to all who peruse this forum...

Fire away, gentlemen !!!!

(OK, maybe that's the wrong thing for me to say... )