Da Judge

[ssc]

For some reason I have had many questions about the taurus judge. It is a revolver that shoots both 45LC and 410 shotshells. It has been advertised in a most heavy fashion. My general response is that it may be OK for a snake gun, but it is substandard for a personal defense weapon. 410 shells are hard to find and offer very little penetration-no matter what load is used. They are not sold, nor allowed in California. If one wants a handgun for self defense in 45LC, there are better choices. The lack of penetration statement is from my observations as well as other people who have published their results.

Regards, Steve

[Chazz Layne]

Wait... .410 is illegal in CA now?



Yep, I'd have to agree about the lack of power and penetration from .410, especially in the short barrel of a handgun. The argument for it that I usually hear is that "it is like shooting five .45s at the target", which of course ignores the differences in velocity, not to mention the fact that .45 (speaking ACP here) is an inadequate defensive round anyhow (not enough energy is transferred to the target, IMO).

The Judge is kinda cool though.

[DaveK]

Wait... .410 is illegal in CA now?



Yep, I'd have to agree about the lack of power and penetration from .410, especially in the short barrel of a handgun. The argument for it that I usually hear is that "it is like shooting five .45s at the target", which of course ignores the differences in velocity, not to mention the fact that .45 (speaking ACP here) is an inadequate defensive round anyhow (not enough energy is transferred to the target, IMO).

How about a Casull .45

[ssc]

The judge is considered a short shotgun and is not on the approved list. If I remember correctly the buckshot load is three balls and the slug load is one and none of them penetrate sufficiently. There is no correlation to a 41 or 45 with these lousy shotshell loads. You want penetration, then as Dave says, the 454 Casull is your gun. I have shot them and they are a handfull, but they will get through some nasty stuff, such as a pissed off bear. I have never shot one in a double action frame, but the SA frame is not bad.

Regards, Steve

[sdnative]

Just curious since you mentioned pissed off bear, how do double-ought (regular -9 shot and magnum -15 shot) and slugs do against them. I typically carry these in my wilderness loadout. Those magnums are brutal. Standard 12ga long gun stuff not handgun.

I may be confused but I see .410 shotgun shells all the time. Are these what we are talking about?

[ssc]

If I am in Bear country, I only carry slugs, if i have a shotgun. I am not a big fan of double ought. The penetration is not reliable and you are limited by range. I have been known to carry a guide gun in 45-70 or a 375H&H. I will give you some details this weekend why I don't like double ought. Regarding the 410, maybe I am not looking in the right places.

Regards, Steve

[BorregoWrangler]

In bear country I've carried my shotgun with double-ought and slugs. Like Steve said, you're limited in range with the double-ought, but man those shells can dish out massive amounts of damage.

I've talked with game guides who, while in Africa will carry triple-ought rounds in case of lions. They just really have to stand their ground and fire at close range. Maybe Steve has knowledge of this? Do the guides out there carry anything in particular when out with their clients?

[xtatik]

What "bear country" are we talking about? Alaska?, Montana? In most of my travels in the western US, banging pots and pans together has had a 100% success rate. Do you guys travel into areas where Grizz or Kodiaks hang out?
On my fishing trips into Alaska nearly all the guides packed shotguns loaded to fire progressively with #8's, #00, and slugs. I asked them if a sidearm was ever considered and they said "absolutely not!". They said the only people who rely on sidearms when dealing with Grizz are the F&G taggers because they work so closely with the animals. But, even then they have someone standing at a safe distance with a shotgun.

[ssc]

To those who want to carry pots and pans for bear protection, have at it. By the way, black bears attack and injure people more often than brown bears.

John, maybe the game guides are different than PH's. I do not know of any PH's who carry shotguns for lions. I have heard a few stories of a few who have tried in the past and have been mauled. Double ought just doesn't have the penetration ability for consistent performance on something that wants to eat you. You need to be able to penetrate muscle and bone from any angle--and to penetrate deeply. (no laughing ) The last thing you want is to stand your ground with a charging lion and let him get close. They can leap at you from a distance and even if you hit them hard in the air they can do alot of damage upon impact. Most charges from lions are at a distance and they announce their coming, so one usually has some time to shoot. I have never been charged by a lion, but have been charged by a cape buff at less than 12 yards or so. Most PH's carry 458 Lotts or 450 or 416's when DG is involved. However, some have some nice doubles.

I have seen PH's carry shotguns when tracking wounded leopard and do know of various shoots involving shotguns. Sometimes they work and sometimes not. Too many times, ought fails to penetrate. I have shot a few things with 00 and at very close range, with no objects in the way, on thin skined game, it can be very effective. If any type of cover is involved or thick skin or past 20 yards, in my experience, all bets are off.
Regards, Steve

[BorregoWrangler]

Ok, I see. I'll have to keep that in mind if I'm ever in Africa. Kinda reminds me of this: