BLM Rules for Calif Desert.

[xtatik]

As for your asking me to comment on laws that you feel may already supercede, be applicable or make redundant the BLM's........where would be a good place to start looking? Here's why I ask.....the BLM has the benefit of plurality when it comes to jurisdiction, and they know it. Should I research county (depending on location), the CPC, or federal level? Cuz, I'm sure as you assert, that they ALL have anti-litter regulations. But, i'm also certain they would have NO impact on the targeted problems/solutions that the BLM is attempting to abate in these areas.
Find me an existing law (not written by the BLM) that will be as effective as a ban in keeping glass, nails and other foreign objects out of the dunes.

Dave, you keep mentioning existing laws.........help us understand. We all know that there are litter laws on the books at all levels. But, with most litter laws the officers cannot cite until the infraction occurs.

Hypothetically speaking, prior to these laws/rules if an officer were standing immediately in the presence of someone with a glass bottle....they could do nothing. If that person set the bottle down without breaking it and walked away, the person could be cited for littering and the bottle could be picked up and properly discarded. If that same person dropped that same bottle and it broke and scattered, again the person could cited, but there is a distinct difference in this case in that much of the litter (glass shards) cannot be recovered and will continue to exist as a danger to person and property and writing the citation did little or nothing to protect future land users.

What current laws (laws that preceded these) would be enforceable, but more importantly EFFECTIVE in keeping dangerous foreign materials out of these very specifically targeted sand dune recreation areas?

If it were your charge to manage this area how would you have gone about it using the preceding anti-litter laws/rules? Keep in mind, at Glamis (ISDRA) on a holiday weekend you may have perhaps 20-40 officers (many brought in temporarily for the holiday) in various vehicles and be patrolling 6-7 main camping areas with a population of approximately 150,000 or more people. This amounts to more officers per capita than most municipalities will put on patrol at any given time so you're not short on manpower/enforcement.
In another similar scenario...you're still in charge, but let's say your officers have had the benefit of the last RAMP rules and have been writing tons of $250.00 glass container infractions and the problem still persists. What then?

[DaveK]

Randy:

I hope in all of the back and forth posts here that I do not neglect to mention that I believe your heart is in the right place and your intentions are sincere. I also again confirm that a real problem exists to which I believe a reasonable and sensible solution already exists. Where I think you have gone astray, involves your unbound zeal for a solution without regard to it’s ultimate effect and without a reasonable knowledge of existing laws.

Your request that I help you understand is reasonable. Lets assume that these new rules/laws are implemented, making the possession of all glass beverage containers, illegal. So then, all beer bottles will be prohibited, all wine bottles will be prohibited, all liquor bottles will be prohibited, all drink mix bottles will be prohibited and all soft drink bottles will be prohibited.

I asked you before to let us know just how big the problem was involving responsible people who clean up their broken glass and so far, we have no response. Everyone who has been following these posts knows the answer. Anyone who uses the desert, knows the answer. Even though it should go without saying, I will. It isn’t a problem at all.

These new rules are an attempt to address a very real problem caused by a small group of irresponsible desert users. Once implemented (and presumably enforced), the effect will be, yet again, to take just another little chunk out of our liberties. Sure, you can say, “what’s the real harm”, especially when the benefits are so great and that’s a hard argument to dispute. Until, of course, you start adding up all of the little chunks that these types of rules constitute. In your zeal to correct this very real problem, you have done so at the expense of the liberties of every responsible desert user. Every little chunk matters and it is foolish and dangerous to be so short-sighted when viewing it’s effect.

The most fundamental flaw in both these laws and your unwavering support, is the naive belief that merely passing a law will “keep these dangerous objects out of targeted areas.” I must assume that you think that this small group of irresponsible desert users will now suddenly stop bringing glass to the desert because of the passage of a law? If so, the question that you must answer is why this same group didn’t refrain from littering when they knew damn well that it was illegal? Both acts are illegal but you believe that although this group broke the anti littering laws previously, they will now obey the law. You are mistaken.

Or maybe you think that once it is illegal to possess glass containers, the BLM enforcement officers can apprehend the violators before the damage occurs. I must again assume that you think that this small group of irresponsible desert users are going to openly break the law and flaunt the glass containers in front of the BLM. I think you are again mistaken. If these irresponsible desert users illegally bring glass containers and hide them from the view of the BLM, are we not left with the same problem we started out with? And, what has your new law done to solve the problem?

Perhaps you are expecting the BLM to search every vehicle, ice chest, trailer and container, as each vehicle enters the targeted areas?

The vast majority of Desert users are responsible and for the most part, never break the law, let alone, glass. When they do however, they clean it up. What this new rule will do is punish this majority of responsible desert users because of the acts of a few and will turn people into Federal criminals for the innocent possession of a glass container. That is heavy handed and over-reaching. All of us who use these areas will have to adjust our behavior, not because of anything we have done, but due to the carelessness of a few. This is wrong and is the result of two things, 1) the rules are poorly drafted and 2) the BLM has failed to perform it’s enforcement duties, as they are required to do.

I just wish you had the same zeal to see the BLM do it’s job of enforcement as you have for these ill-advised rules.

[xtatik]

Dave,
I appreciate your civility in the debate and feel likewise.
But, I also think you're attempting to obfuscate the debate here.
Here are some facts:
On holiday weekends as many as 150,000 responsible and irresponsible people descend on this postage stamp (by comparison) sized area. No doubt an overwhelming majority are responsible folks (note my concession here). But, you're comments that responsible people will pick up all their broken glass, has no basis in reality. Responsible persons will attempt to pick up as much as they can find....But, fer crapsakes it's SAND...I'll reiterate and spell it out, it's S-A-N-D! and that spells L-O-S-T!, as in "lost in the sand".... Responsible people don't pick up all their broken glass because they can't find all their broken glass. And.......this is why these rules are in place.

With the same people visiting these places in huge numbers as they do, time and time again, even the MOST RESPONSIBLE create a tremendous impact....even with their drastically smaller number of unintentional oopsies.

Consider this:
Speaking of oopsies...let's turn the numbers upside-down and tilt them in your arguments favor by saying that of the 190,000 people that showed up at Glamis last Thanksgiving, a minority were responsible campers.
Very conservatively, we'll say only 10,000 of them were responsible folks that made the trip to Glamis every Thanksgiving, or Christmas, or both for the past 10 years. Having been there countless times, believe me when I tell you, every other campsite consists of these types of people down there.....Good people, and to them, the place is Mecca. Let's say from that responsible minority of 10,000, we randomly single out one responsible-sandrail owning-family-guy. Again, we're assuming he's a responsible guy and that he makes every effort to leave a clean site at the end of his stay. But, as responsible as he is...he's not perfect, and once in the past ten years he broke a bottle and left one piece of glass lost in the sand, additionally, and only once in the past ten years, one of his kids lost track of a tent stake after striking down a tent and neglected to tell anyone. Is he a bad guy?....not in my book...one bottle in ten years...one piece of glass, that's not so bad. And, he didn't even know about the lost stake...No, he's not a bad guy, he's an average responsible guy that knowingly made one mistake and did all he could to remedy it. But, he's also an average responsible guy who made a mistake amongst 20,000 others just like him. Add up the tent stakes.....10,000. Add up the amount of glass...10,000 random-sized pieces (how many bottles is that?). All of it coming from your "responsible" side of the crowd.
Now, back to reality.....he's not in the minority, he's in the majority..so multiply that number again to be commensorate with actual numbers. The reality is, that while the irresponsible minority is willfully making a mess, it's usually in smaller numbers and amounts. The responsible majority is contributing to the problem less often but by their shear numbers alone, the most responsible people will accidentally and cumulatively leave tons of debris buried and lost in the sand....Yep, tons buried out there! It's already the case.
You want to paint me as being naive on this issue....... Dave, blaming the BLM for a lack of enforcement is irresponsible, and would indicate to me that you've never been there. Those who have, or especially those who frequent the place are in favor of these new rules because they know how hard the BLM has worked to enforce rules and manage the place for their interests. They know it will make a difference

[jgorm]

I must again assume that you think that this small group of irresponsible desert users are going to openly break the law and flaunt the glass containers in front of the BLM. I think you are again mistaken. If these irresponsible desert users illegally bring glass containers and hide them from the view of the BLM, are we not left with the same problem we started out with? And, what has your new law done to solve the problem?

Perhaps you are expecting the BLM to search every vehicle, ice chest, trailer and container, as each vehicle enters the targeted areas?

Exactly! Making it illegal to have a glass container = lot of the irresponsible people burying the glass containers in the sand to avoid a ticket. Inspecting every cooler, vehicle, etc would be a huge waste of our tax $$.

Dave,
But, you're comments that responsible people will pick up all their broken glass, has no basis in reality. Responsible persons will attempt to pick up as much as they can find....But, fer crapsakes it's SAND...I'll reiterate and spell it out, it's S-A-N-D! and that spells L-O-S-T!, as in "lost in the sand".... Responsible people don't pick up all their broken glass because they can't find all their broken glass. And.......this is why these rules are in place.

If you drop a beer bottle in SAND, its not going to break. If it did, i'd assume that most people would rake the sand with their fingers to see if there were any other reasonable chunks. If they pick up all the pieces that they find, and leave a couple rice grain sized chunks of glass, who cares? It not going to cut a tire, and you would really have to be stomping around barefoot to even have the slightest worry. A cactus would be MUCH worse. You make sand sound like its the ocean and is 400'+ deep. You might loose an ear ring, but i'd wager that if you threw a quarter into the sand less than 20' away (while i watched), i could find it.

[DaveK]

Randy:

A very lengthy hypothetical, but unfortunately, unsupported by any facts. An ooppsie?

For all of my efforts to bring the truth to light, I could not have done a better job than your last post. I won’t even bother to look elsewhere, because you have made my point as well as it can be made. While it pains me to say so, it is terribly naive to think that these new rules are the answer to this problem when the critical issue of enforcement has been so badly ignored by you.

Equally important to this discussion is your unwillingness to accept, or even discuss, the fact that we, who obey the law (the majority), are having just another chunk of our liberties removed. You must obviously think it is OK for someone to be subject to a Federal crime, for the mere and innocent possession of a glass bottle. I admire your fervor for a solution, but I abhor the unnecessary heavy handed approach and the overreach that these new rules represent. In the name of solving a problem you have forced the greater majority of responsible desert users to change their behavior. Behavior, by the way, which never caused a problem.

Using your own hypothetical, there are a huge number of people who are using these areas on popular weekends. Only the naive would believe that the few BLM officers assigned to enforcement, can do the job. Only the naive would believe that these new laws (and the old ones as well) will be self enforcing. Since you have failed to address the fact that the law breakers will continue to break the law (even a new one), we deserve to know how you expect to see any improvement in this situation.

Totally missed (or ignored) by you is the most obvious question - what difference in enforcement can we expect under the new rules that we didn’t see previously. And, more importantly, if the BLM will be getting more aggressive now, why didn’t they do so earlier. Oh, and don’t forget, there are no new or different funding provisions contained in these new rules. Please don’t make the mistake of suggesting that they couldn’t enforce a “no glass” rule earlier as it didn’t exist. At all times, they had the authority to enforce a number of anti littering laws, but apparently failed to do so. At all times they had the authority to enforce the anti-nudity laws, but failed to do so. At all times, they had the authority to require campsites be free of trash, but failed to do so.

Randy, blaming the BLM for a lack of enforcement, while it may not set well with you, remains the truth. Without enforcement, laws are meaningless.

[cruiserlarry]

Equally important to this discussion is your unwillingness to accept, or even discuss, the fact that we, who obey the law (the majority), are having just another chunk of our liberties removed. I admire your fervor for a solution, but I abhor the unnecessary heavy handed approach and the overreach that these new rules represent. In the name of solving a problem you have forced the greater majority of responsible desert users to change their behavior. Behavior, by the way, which never caused a problem.

While it is a very noble quest to protect all of your "liberties" regardless of the cost to others, it just doesn't play out in a civilized society. If you've flown on a plane since 9/11, you are well aware of the sacrifice we have all made to our personal liberties for the protection of the many. I have never posed a threat to anyone at an airport, yet I find myself barefoot and metal and shampoo-free on the way to my gate. I don't like it, and I honestly don't think it makes any difference in preventing a terrorist attack on a plane. But, I find it a small price to pay for the however misguided sense of security the rest of the passengers might get from this attack on my personal freedom. We do not live on an open range, we do not have perfect enforcement, we sometimes end up with over legislated solutions, and even responsible people litter on occasion.

When I have universal health care available to helicopter me out and patch me up, I'll worry less about the glass in the dunes...we've just got much bigger fish to fry, IMO...

Besides, don't most folks prefer wine in a box ???

[DaveK]

While it is a very noble quest to protect all of your "liberties" regardless of the cost to others, it just doesn't play out in a civilized society. If you've flown on a plane since 9/11, you are well aware of the sacrifice we have all made to our personal liberties for the protection of the many. I have never posed a threat to anyone at an airport, yet I find myself barefoot and metal and shampoo-free on the way to my gate. I don't like it, and I honestly don't think it makes any difference in preventing a terrorist attack on a plane. But, I find it a small price to pay for the however misguided sense of security the rest of the passengers might get from this attack on my personal freedom. We do not live on an open range, we do not have perfect enforcement, we sometimes end up with over legislated solutions, and even responsible people litter on occasion.

When I have universal health care available to helicopter me out and patch me up, I'll worry less about the glass in the dunes...we've just got much bigger fish to fry, IMO...

Besides, don't most folks prefer wine in a box ???

Larry:

I am most unaccustomed to being referred to as noble. At least here, this may be a first.

I am familiar with the rational behind the Patriot Act laws and I too, am willing to accept these regulations as we face and deal with terrorists.

Unfortunately, I strongly believe that glass in the desert is easily distinguishable from terrorists who are intent on killing as many Americans as they can. I think it is quite a stretch to say that nude campers are comparable to the destruction of the Twin Towers. Although it just may be that some of these nude campers pose a greater public threat than I originally believed.

[cruiserlarry]

Speaking of terrorist threats - You do realize the posting that picture could be considered a form of torture...

[BlueFJ]

eeew, eeew, eeew

[BorregoWrangler]

Oh no, my eyes!!!! It burns!!!!