4th Annual Barstow Clean-Up Nov 13, 2010

[DaveK]

Larry:

This really has nothing to do with threats, perceived or otherwise, to anyone’s second amended rights. I thought I made it clear, but I will say it again. This issue is about trashing the desert.

I would encourage you to read my post again as I fear that you may have missed the intent. Your efforts to clean up the mess at Calico are quite admirable but you do yourself an injustice when you allow your anti-gun bias to taint your comments, as here.

This all started out by your assertion that 99% of the “crap” in the desert is gun related and that there was 10+ tons of this stuff. Unfortunately, when called out, you had to admit it was an “exaggeration”. It shouldn’t be so hard to call it what it is, without resorting to your usual exaggerations. Trash is trash and the perpetrators are wrong whether they are shooters, illegal trash dumpers, or off-roaders. Unfortunately, your bias seems to find shooters responsible for 99% of the problem. Simply not true.

And, it’s not just your usual exaggerations that are bothersome. This manhood argument of yours is absurd. Unless your have been trained by the TSA, one cannot help but wonder how you are qualified to opine on the size of the package of people you have never met or seen. Why are you not content to call these miscreants what they are instead of engaging in unverified personal attacks concerning the size of their manhood. For laughs it would be interesting to see your reaction to “small size” allegations made against certain 4WD truck owners who drive around with “10 tons” of off-road stuff bolted to the outside of their truck, with enough lights to illuminate a jet runway and roof top tents. You don’t need to engage in personal attacks to validate your position.

Your summary dismissal of John’s ideas is unfortunate. I think he has made valid suggestions and for you to say that it does not address the problem, is just wrong. If educating these irresponsible shooters is not the answer, how else do you reduce the problem.

Lastly, I must insist that it is none of your business what type of shooting one engages in, including blowing things up, as long as it’s legal and cleaned up. Isn’t that really the issue?

[cruiserlarry]

This really has nothing to do with threats, perceived or otherwise, to anyone’s second amended rights. I thought I made it clear, but I will say it again. This issue is about trashing the desert.

That was my original statement; I just added my bias based on what I saw being cleaned up, both now and in the past. I was hoping to encourage gun enthusiasts to help more, not just defend those who give their hobby a black eye.

I would encourage you to read my post again as I fear that you may have missed the intent. Your efforts to clean up the mess at Calico are quite admirable but you do yourself an injustice when you allow your anti-gun bias to taint your comments, as here.

My comments neither inhibit my ability to help, nor prevent the problem from recurring - they only help to incite your commentary .

Trash is trash and the perpetrators are wrong whether they are shooters, illegal trash dumpers, or off-roaders

That is the most accurate statement you've made during this debate - I agree, 100% (no exaggeration)

Unfortunately, your bias seems to find shooters responsible for 99% of the problem. Simply not true.

And your bias tends to manifest the philosophy that shooters are rarely the problem - and this is not supported by my experience actually picking the stuff up - so we are equally guilty of injecting bias into our arguments.

And, it’s not just your usual exaggerations that are bothersome. This manhood argument of yours is absurd. Unless your have been trained by the TSA, one cannot help but wonder how you are qualified to opine on the size of the package of people you have never met or seen.

That is perhaps the single funniest statement you have made on this forum, IMO. Well, I'm hoping it was intended to be funny, 'cause my manhood assertions were...

Why are you not content to call these miscreants what they are instead of engaging in unverified personal attacks concerning the size of their manhood. For laughs it would be interesting to see your reaction to “small size” allegations made against certain 4WD truck owners who drive around with “10 tons” of off-road stuff bolted to the outside of their truck, with enough lights to illuminate a jet runway and roof top tents. You don’t need to engage in personal attacks to validate your position.

So, you are not content just to defend the actions of people you have not met or cleaned up after, but defend their "parts" as well ? I assume your joking here, as you missed the most logical rebuttal argument...these miscreants could be female, rendering my accusations mute.

Your summary dismissal of John’s ideas is unfortunate. I think he has made valid suggestions and for you to say that it does not address the problem, is just wrong. If educating these irresponsible shooters is not the answer, how else do you reduce the problem.

I did not dismiss John's suggestion; in fact it is excellent if implemented. I simply stated that it would not address the problem, but the symptoms. Of course, anything is better than nothing, as I've always advocated compromise

Lastly, I must insist that it is none of your business what type of shooting one engages in, including blowing things up, as long as it’s legal and cleaned up. Isn’t that really the issue?

Well, in a perfect world, that might be true. But if law-abiding folks (including gun enthusiasts, off-roaders, and anyone who appreciates the great outdoors) didn't make it their business, there are many who would (and do, as is demonstrated by the need for the clean-up) do what they want regardless of the law. And this statement is true for all perpetrators, whether they are, as you stated "shooters, illegal trash dumpers, or off-roaders". Only ostriches enjoy keeping their heads in the sand...

I'd like to see large contingent of OAUSA members show up next time, and maybe you and John can demonstrate how to clean up the shot-up and exploded debris more effectively... we'd all appreciate the help.

[cruiserlarry]

Keep in mind that all of the casings and brass you picked up wasn't just left there during one outing. That stuff accumulates over time. I've seen it in many of the BLM managed lands throughout San Diego and Imperial Counties, but maybe Calico is different somehow.

I can't tell you how many times I've been out and seen a group of young folks who were out shooting about to leave without cleaning anything up.

So rather than a recent problem, the issue of irresponsible shooters in all areas of the desert has been going on often, for many years, maybe decades...that's an encouraging demonstration of the effectiveness of one-on-one mentoring to this point.

Seriously, your idea is helpful - your example was not (I do get your point - take your hands off the keyboard, Dave )

Being proficient, safe, and responsible with a firearm doesn't necessarily have anything to do with cleaning up any mess. However, I can tell you that it will be with my children. When I reached my late teens I was able to demonstrate such competent and safe use with them that I was eventually completely autonomous and proven trustworthy in the handling of firearms. I hope my children will be able to do the same, but I will also teach them what I was not- don't leave a mess for someone else to clean up or risk getting an area closed to public use.

I know that you and Dave are both conscientious, educated enthusiasts - none of my commentary is directed at either of you. I applaud you efforts to educate those less informed. I just think you underestimate the number of "enthusiasts" who just don't care at all, and enjoy the protection given by those who feel the hobby is under attack.

I can assure you that I've spent a lot of time not only on my own but with 4X4 and "gun groups" picking up and clearing away trash and garbage all throughout Anza-Borrego, Cleveland National Forest, and the local BLM lands in my neck of the woods. Feel free to come down sometime and we can get a trail clean-up run going!

I think that is something OAUSA might want to take into consideration - and as I stated above, I know you are part of the solution, not the problem.

[DaveK]

Larry:

Humor is always such a difficult thing to do and the fear of crickets is sometimes overwhelming. It’s nice to see that my attempts at levity were appreciated.

If you re-read my posts you will discover that I have not condoned, approved or defended the actions of irresponsible shooters. Nor do I suggest “that shooters are rarely the problem” . I invite you to demonstrate otherwise. I merely suggested to you that your bias was not necessary to prove any point. Encouraging others to help is quite acceptable, but not by unwarranted exaggerations, not to mention, personal baseless attacks. Irresponsible shooters give enough of a black eye to the shooting sports. There is no need to exaggerate the magnitude of the problem.

I am very pleased to see approval for John’s suggestions. Since we do not have the means to turn the clock back and teach responsibility to the miscreants, I think that John’s ideas are not just good, but perhaps one of the very few that will work, as they do in fact address the problem. Cleaning up the mess, addresses the symptoms. Changing behavior, addresses the cause.

Regarding compromise, I fear that we are not in agreement. Compromise should never be an option for one’s core values.

I am in complete agreement that it would be a great idea to make this an OAUSA event.

[cruiserlarry]

Compromise should never be an option for one’s core values.

There isn't a major figure or accomplishment in the history of man that didn't involve compromise on some level. You can compromise your actions without changing your core values. Even your values are a dynamic force, usually evolving with age and experience. Without compromise, nothing gets done, regardless of the field of endeavor, political belief, or cultural experience. And this is easy to demonstrate in today's political / social climate. But, there is no doubt in my mind that you will "stick to your guns" on this one..

[DaveK]

Compromise should never be an option for one’s core values.

There isn't a major figure or accomplishment in the history of man that didn't involve compromise on some level. You can compromise your actions without changing your core values. Even your values are a dynamic force, usually evolving with age and experience. Without compromise, nothing gets done, regardless of the field of endeavor, political belief, or cultural experience. And this is easy to demonstrate in today's political / social climate. But, there is no doubt in my mind that you will "stick to your guns" on this one..

Bulls-eye!