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440 Band in Jeopardy

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Re: 440 Band in Jeopardy

Post by DaveK » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:28 am

cruiserlarry wrote:
Cammo wrote:From Wikipedia: (my reasons in bold)
Names and words are sometimes intentionally and satirically misspelled for a rhetorical purpose.
The purposefulness of the letter switch was not lost on me...To me, it detracted from your point, as it was being used in a derogatory, not sarcastic way, to accent a statement that has no factual basis.
Hmmmm............. When Cammo used the word “publik”, you clearly responded in a way that suggested he had failed to learn how to spell in school or use a dictionary, like you did. The implication being that his post was uneducated. A swipe? A cheap shot? But now you admit that you knew all along that this spelling was a form of political speech. Why then was it necessary to make fun of his spelling, as if he failed to learn spelling in school, when you knew all along that it was political. Your answer - because his statement had no factual basis?????????

I hope Cammo appreciates your help.
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Re: 440 Band in Jeopardy

Post by DaveK » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:53 am

Larry:

I believe that your understanding of the “attitude” of the founders of this country is inaccurate. The origins of this country and the attitude of the founders was based on a timeless belief in the need for all men to be free. They believed that the origin of the rights protected by this new nation were from God and not government. You would do well to read the Declaration of Independence. It says:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...
The rights which these founders sought to protect were not new, novel or progressive. The desire to create a union where these timeless rights were protected is as old as history. It is a disservice to these men to characterize them as progressives.

The Constitution is not a living document meant to be changed so as to keep it relevant to the times. Its meaning is fixed as are the principles upon which it was founded. That is why Federal courts, including the Supreme Court, seek the original intent of the founders to be able to interpret the Constitution. They do not and should not rely on current thinking or fads, or current morals (or a lack thereof) or opinion polls to interpret the Constitution. James Madison wrote:
I entirely concur in the propriety of resorting to the sense in which the Constitution was accepted and ratified by the nation. In that sense alone it is the legitimate Constitution. And if that be not the guide in expounding it, there can be no security for a consistent and stable, more than for a faithful, exercise of its powers.
The beauty and genius of the Constitution is that it was based on timeless truths, principles and beliefs, making it as relevant today as when it was written. The attempts to chip away at the Constitution are principally by those who believe in more governmental control.

A greater understanding of the Constitution and the amendment process is necessary before suggesting that the constitution is a living document. While it is true that the Constitution has been amended, as provided for in the document itself, it is very difficult to do and in over 220 years, has been amended only 17 times (not counting the Bill of Rights). This difficulty was intentional in order to prevent the very argument that you espouse, that the document is living. To accept your thinking is to abandon the beliefs, morals, and truths on which the Constitution was based.

You may be right, that this thread is not jinxed. Cursed, maybe, doomed, perhaps, but definitely burdened by too much non HR 607 material.
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Re: 440 Band in Jeopardy

Post by xtatik » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:17 pm

DaveK wrote: That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...
Dave, what does this part mean?
DaveK wrote: It is a disservice to these men to characterize them as progressives.]

I admire your passion and I'm certain you feel flushed with patriotism when you say it, but it isn't true. They were both conservative and progressive...moreso than either, they were revolutionaries. I'm thankful for that.
DaveK wrote: The Constitution is not a living document meant to be changed so as to keep it relevant to the times. Its meaning is fixed as are the principles upon which it was founded. That is why Federal courts, including the Supreme Court, seek the original intent of the founders to be able to interpret the Constitution. They do not and should not rely on current thinking or fads, or current morals (or a lack thereof) or opinion polls to interpret the Constitution. James Madison wrote:
I entirely concur in the propriety of resorting to the sense in which the Constitution was accepted and ratified by the nation. In that sense alone it is the legitimate Constitution. And if that be not the guide in expounding it, there can be no security for a consistent and stable, more than for a faithful, exercise of its powers.
http://www.montpelier.org/explore/commu ... adison.php
That's an interesting statement coming from him. If, as you say "they do not and should not rely on current thinking or fads, or current morals (or a lack thereof) or opinion polls to interpret the Constitution"....then why did we as a nation decide to crap on Madison's liberties and rights to own people as property at a later time? Which of these was it that provided the impetus for change? Was it possibly one of these reasons:
-Current thinking or fads?
-Current morals (or a lack thereof)?
-Opinion polls?
Perhaps it was a combination of the above that drove the nation to abolish slavery and amend as needed. I say the nations morals had changed. The nation had become more enlightened and had come to a point where it needed to admit a fault. The most remarkable point to this and what should make us most proud is that we did something to correct it. More people died in correcting this wrong than in any foreign war. And yet, in defeat, many Americans still felt their rights and liberties had been stricken from them. Sometimes it just takes time for people to realize the maligned nature of their beliefs.
DaveK wrote: The beauty and genius of the Constitution is that it was based on timeless truths, principles and beliefs, making it as relevant today as when it was written. The attempts to chip away at the Constitution are principally by those who believe in more governmental control.
A greater understanding of the Constitution and the amendment process is necessary before suggesting that the constitution is a living document. While it is true that the Constitution has been amended, as provided for in the document itself, it is very difficult to do and in over 220 years, has been amended only 17 times (not counting the Bill of Rights). This difficulty was intentional in order to prevent the very argument that you espouse, that the document is living. To accept your thinking is to abandon the beliefs, morals, and truths on which the Constitution was based.
I think the fact that it has needed repair 17 times in only 220 years speaks volumes as to it's being as imperfect as those who wrote it. If you'd like me to expound on this, I'd love to, but will refain for now. Regarding nations governed by charters and constitutions, 220 years is a relatively short history. Don't take this the wrong way....it's still my favorite constitution, but I'm just not up to taking it on as a religious scripture. Patriotism or nationalism is an ideal I hold separate from faith.
To borrow your words, I think the true beauty and genius to the Constitution (and, I do mean genius) resides in it's Preamble. The Preamble serves as precisely that, and it prefaces and gives foundation to all that follows below it. When it states that the people do ordain and establish it as our Constitution, it means precisely that, we ordain it. It does not give us validity, we give validity to it...we ordain it, we establish it....not the reverse. If it allows for behaviors within our society that "We the people" at any time decide are so agregious and counterproductive to a peacable society...we can and have had Congress amend it.
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Re: 440 Band in Jeopardy

Post by unwiredadventures » Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:03 pm

xtatik wrote:I think the fact that it has needed repair 17 times in only 220 years speaks volumes as to it's being as imperfect as those who wrote it. If you'd like me to expound on this, I'd love to, but will refain for now. Regarding nations governed by charters and constitutions, 220 years is a relatively short history. Don't take this the wrong way....it's still my favorite constitution, but I'm just not up to taking it on as a religious scripture. Patriotism or nationalism is an ideal I hold separate from faith.
I'd like a couple of the amendments to be repealed. The 16th :D and 17th. Add a new one or at least a new law with term limits for both houses of Congress.

I believe this topic has so much passion because our elected representatives pass laws that are so obviously unconstitutional. Then it's years if not a lifetime to correct their mistakes.
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Re: 440 Band in Jeopardy

Post by cruiserlarry » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:10 pm

DaveK wrote: When Cammo used the word “publik”, you clearly responded in a way that suggested he had failed to learn how to spell in school or use a dictionary, like you did. The implication being that his post was uneducated. A swipe? A cheap shot? But now you admit that you knew all along that this spelling was a form of political speech. Why then was it necessary to make fun of his spelling, as if he failed to learn spelling in school, when you knew all along that it was political.
Wow - you certainly can read more into anything I say than I could ever imagine. And that everything I say is somehow a swipe, or a cheap shot. Yet if someone is sarcastically misspelling a word to imply a political motive, as you suggest, well, that it perfectly acceptable.

My opinion is you tend to over-analyze most of my comments ( or those of anyone with opposing viewpoints), as well as feel the need to "win" every debated issue...and this is not a swipe at you, as I do have great respect for you and appreciate the information you present. However, just as the Supreme Court has rarely been unanimous in decisions related to Constitutional issues, we will continue to disagree on our interpretation of the Constitution, the intent of it's original participants, and the ability to amend the constitution to adapt the tenants on which it was written to the needs of modern society. Given these issues have been discussed and debated since their inception, by men likely more informed and more knowledgeable on the subject than you or I, I feel we're in good company.

I would, actually, like to know more about the progress regarding the attempt to stop HR 607, and will give up on presenting further rebuttals in the hope we will get this thread back on track...
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Re: 440 Band in Jeopardy

Post by xtatik » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:04 pm

cruiserlarry wrote: I would, actually, like to know more about the progress regarding the attempt to stop HR 607, and will give up on presenting further rebuttals in the hope we will get this thread back on track...
I agree. I've said my piece and I'm done with this thread for any other purpose but discussing HR607

So, here's some good news from the ARRL. It appears we are getting some backing from the public service side of the issue. However, it's unlikely we'll see any concession from the business spectrum users....I'm sure they're frothing at the mouth and can't wait to put all manner of RF noisy, cheaply manufactured and redundant consumer gadgets into profitable service on it. Can't wait to see what the next gadget of distraction will be if we lose.
http://www.arrl.org/news/npstc-says-hr- ... be-amended
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Re: 440 Band in Jeopardy

Post by DaveK » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:57 pm

It is refreshing to see that some of our combatants are now ready to get back on track. I like that. Regrettably, it took us over 30 posts to get to that point. Were it not for the fact that I feel a compelling urge to respond to at least some of the more important comments here, I too would like nothing better than to focus on the defeat of the King Bill and I will do that shortly.

While entire websites could be devoted to this debate, I will do something that goes against my very nature - be brief.

Since time, and my promise to be brief, do not allow a full discussion of all of the amendments, I will only focus on the Thirteenth (slavery), especially since it was Randy’s choice to bring this into the conversation to begin with. If you recall my earlier comments, I said that the Constitution was never meant to be a living document interpreted using current thinking or fads, or current morals (or a lack thereof) or opinion polls. I sincerely hope that no one would ever suggest that the impetus behind the Thirteenth Amendment was a fad, an opinion poll, a lack of morals, or some current new thought. The thirteenth Amendment was the product of significantly more, and that was the point of my comments

Where we have gone astray here is that this discussion had its origin in a debate over progressives and in that context I have maintained that the well known goals of this group have too often been to do damage to the Constitution, based on a fluctuating set of morals (or lack thereof), opinion polls and fad thinking. The belief that the Constitution is a living document is the gateway for the left to make changes to the Constitution that do not equal or come close to the reasons for the Thirteenth Amendment.

Advocates of a “living” Constitution believe the Constitution is outdated and unable to grow and adapt to the times. The amendment procedure detailed in Article V belies such claims. As Madison explains in The Federalist, the amendment procedure allows subsequent generations to correct errors and make whatever "useful alterations will be suggested by experience." Yet at the same time, the difficulty of constitutional amendment prevents the Constitution from being deprived "of that veneration, which time bestows on everything, and without which the wisest and freest governments would not possess the requisite stability." By design, the amendment process requires extensive deliberation and ensures that amendments are the settled opinion of the American people. It is not a living document.

Now back to the proposed King legislation;

1. Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsW5AjS65U0

2. Current status of bill (4/6/11): On 2/28/2011 it was referred to House Subcommittee on Communications and Technology.

3. List of co-sponsors. If you have enough ink in your pen, write them all.
Rep Berkley, Shelley [NV-1] - 2/14/2011
Rep Boswell, Leonard L. [IA-3] - 3/3/2011
Rep Clarke, Yvette D. [NY-11] - 2/10/2011
Rep Ellison, Keith [MN-5] - 2/17/2011
Rep Grimm, Michael G. [NY-13] - 2/10/2011
Rep Jackson Lee, Sheila [TX-18] - 3/30/2011
Rep Johnson, Eddie Bernice [TX-30] - 3/30/2011
Rep Langevin, James R. [RI-2] - 2/17/2011
Rep Latham, Tom [IA-4] - 3/29/2011
Rep Long, Billy [MO-7] - 2/10/2011
Rep McCarthy, Carolyn [NY-4] - 3/30/2011
Rep Michaud, Michael H. [ME-2] - 3/29/2011
Rep Miller, Candice S. [MI-10] - 2/10/2011
Rep Richardson, Laura [CA-37] - 2/14/2011
Rep Rogers, Mike D. [AL-3] - 2/10/2011
Rep Thompson, Bennie G. [MS-2] - 2/10/2011
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Re: 440 Band in Jeopardy

Post by cruiserlarry » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:11 am

DaveK wrote:It is refreshing to see that some of our combatants are now ready to get back on track. I like that. Regrettably, it took us over 30 posts to get to that point. Were it not for the fact that I feel a compelling urge to respond to at least some of the more important comments here, I too would like nothing better than to focus on the defeat of the King Bill and I will do that shortly.

While entire websites could be devoted to this debate, I will do something that goes against my very nature - be brief.
Well, all of us are back on track with one exception - you :lol: .

As the primary person complaining about the redirection of this thread in the first place, you might try harder to control your compulsion to have the last word. ;)

As for your claim of brevity, well, at least your computer can't run out of ink... :roll:

As to the topic at hand, I think we could post up the mailing addresses of the committee members, and co-signers of HR 607, or maybe someone spreadsheet savvy could make a template for the rest of us to create our mass mailings...

-any volunteers ?? :mrgreen:
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Re: 440 Band in Jeopardy

Post by xtatik » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:48 pm

cruiserlarry wrote:Well, all of us are back on track with one exception - you :lol: .

As the primary person complaining about the redirection of this thread in the first place, you might try harder to control your compulsion to have the last word. ;)

As for your claim of brevity, well, at least your computer can't run out of ink... :roll:
It doesn't really matter. That last post is at war within itself....it's unresolved. It makes my point as well as his, and I'm content to leave it at that.
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Re: 440 Band in Jeopardy

Post by DaveK » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:17 pm

xtatik wrote:I've said my piece and I'm done with this thread for any other purpose but discussing HR607
Well........ I guess it's back to the dictionary for me. I thought "done" meant, no more.

Speaking of being at war with one's self!
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