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Llano del Rio

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Voodoo Blue 57
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Llano del Rio

Post by Voodoo Blue 57 » Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:41 am

Shoot'n Shack 1

Massive errors in FBI’s Active Shooting Reports from 2014-2022 regarding cases where civilians stop attacks: Instead of 4.6%, the correct number is at least 35.7%. In 2022, it is at least 41.3%. Excluding gun-free zones, it averaged over 63.5%.
Aug 31, 2023 | Defensive Gun Use, Original Research

Some of you might have read my posting from several weeks ago about this article. Dave thought it would make a good Shoot'n Shack discussion.

Link to article. https://crimeresearch.org/2023/08/massi ... PoeT2hn1hs


Introduction
The shooting that killed three people and injured another at a Greenwood, Indiana, mall on July 17, 2022 drew broad national attention because of how it ended – when 22-year-old Elisjsha Dicken, carrying a licensed handgun, fatally shot the attacker.
While Dicken was praised for his courage and skill – squeezing off his first shot 15 seconds after the attack began, from a distance of 40 yards – much of the immediate news coverage drew from FBI-approved statistics to assert that armed citizens almost never stop such attackers: “Rare in US for an active shooter to be stopped by bystander” (Associated Press); “Rampage in Indiana a rare instance of armed civilian ending mass shooting” (Washington Post); and “After Indiana mall shooting, one hero but no lasting solution to gun violence” (New York Times).
Evidence compiled by the Crime Prevention Research Center shows that the sources the media relied on undercounted the number of instances in which armed citizens have thwarted such attacks by an order of more than ten, saving untold numbers of lives. Of course, law-abiding citizens stopping these attacks are not rare. What is rare is national news coverage of those incidents. Although those many news stories about the Greenwood shooting also suggested that the defensive use of guns might endanger others, there is no evidence that these acts have harmed innocent victims.
The FBI reports that armed citizens only stopped 14 of the 302 active shooter incidents it identified for the period 2014-2022. The FBI defines active shooter incidents as those in which an individual actively kills or attempts to kill people in a populated, public area. But it does not include those it deems related to other criminal activity, such as a robbery or fighting over drug turf.
An analysis by the CPRC identified a total of 440 active shooter incidents during that period and found that an armed citizen stopped 157. A previous report looked at only instances when armed civilians stopped what likely would have been mass public shootings. There were another 27 cases that we didn’t include where armed civilians stopped armed attacks, but the suspect didn’t fire his gun. Those cases are excluded from our calculations, though it could be argued that a civilian also stopped what likely could have been an active shooting event.
The FBI reported that armed citizens thwarted 4.6% of active shooter incidents, while the CPRC found 35.7%.
Two factors explain this discrepancy – one, misclassified shootings; and two, overlooked incidents. Regarding the former, the CPRC determined that the FBI reports had misclassified five shootings: In two incidents, the Bureau notes in its detailed write-up that citizens possessing valid firearms permits confronted the shooters and caused them to flee the scene. However, the FBI did not list these cases as being stopped by armed citizens because police later apprehended the attackers. In two other incidents, the FBI misidentified armed civilians as armed security personnel. Finally, the FBI failed to mention citizen engagement in one incident.
For example, the Bureau’s report about the Dec. 29, 2019 attack on the West Freeway Church of Christ in White Settlement, Texas, that left two men dead does not list this as an incident of “civic engagement.” Instead, the FBI lists this attack as being stopped by a security guard. A parishioner, who had volunteered to provide security during worship, fatally shot the perpetrator. That man, Jack Wilson, told Dr. John Lott that he was not a security professional. He said that 19 to 20 members of the congregation were armed that day, and they didn’t even keep track of who was carrying a concealed weapon.
As for the second factor — overlooked cases — the FBI, more significantly, missed 35 incidents identified by CPRC where what would likely have been a mass public shooting was thwarted by armed civilians. There were another 103 active shooting incidents that they missed.
There is no reason to think that the news media covers all the cases where civilians stopped attacks. And the farther back in time we go, the more cases we are likely to miss. The next table illustrates this bias. Using the 2014 to 2022 data clearly shows that 41.3% of active shooting attacks were stopped in 2022, 49.1% in 2021, and a declining percentage the farther back in time that we go. That pattern is consistent with us having a more difficult time finding cases that occurred farther in the past.


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Was this an honest mistake or intentional…..you decide.
Last edited by Voodoo Blue 57 on Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:17 am, edited 8 times in total.
Phil

“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” ―Ronald Reagan

“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.” ―Ronald Reagan

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Re: Llano del Rio

Post by Voodoo Blue 57 » Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:42 am

Shoot'n Shack 2

If you listen to our nets for awhile you know that we are advocates for having self-defense liability insurance if you are a gun owner. Whether or not you carry concealed or not you need insurance.

Here is a good example of why.

Link to article. https://www.foxnews.com/us/armed-woman- ... -legal-win

Armed woman who defended herself against 'drunk' roommate celebrates legal win

Female long-haul trucker Maybi Izquierdo said she spent her birthday in jail last year after using her gun to defend herself at home against an aggressive male roommate.

One year later, her case in California has been dismissed, and she’s reflecting on how the Second Amendment helped protect her from violence and the unexpected.

"I think I cried," Izquierdo told Fox News Digital of her Sept. 25, 2022 arrest. "I wanted to talk to my mom. I wanted to talk to my dad … and let them know what happened."

Izquierdo calls Florida home but moved to San Bernardino, California, last year, explaining to Fox News Digital her trucking employer is based in the state, and she wanted to see if it would be a good place to live.

She rented a room for a few months in a house owned by her friend's mom, not knowing one of her roommates, a man, would soon make her fear for her safety.

Izquierdo said on the evening of Sept. 25, 2022, she had just cleaned the home she shared with five other people after a day of cooking and planned to take a shower and relax in her room. The male roommate returned home that evening and, according to Izquierdo, appeared to be intoxicated and began trying to strike up a conversation with the woman.

"He wanted to talk to me, and I wasn't ready for a conversation. I was tired. I wanted to take a shower and go to my room. And he kept on bugging [me]," she recounted. "I think he was drunk because he was gone."

Izquierdo said she thought she could duck his conversation by taking a smoke break outside or going back to the kitchen. But the man continued following her around. The trucker said she told him they could talk the next day when he "cleared his mind," but he became "agitated and a little bit violent."

"I didn't like the way he just kept on walking up to me and just annoying me," she said. She attempted to enter a bathroom in the home to escape him, but that’s when the situation escalated.

"Once he followed me to the bathroom, then I was gonna close the door. He [held] the door. He didn't let me close the door. That's when I noticed that I was in front of maybe a dangerous incident," she said.

Izquierdo said her other roommates were home during the incident but "got scared" and left her alone with the man.

"When I went to close the door of the little bathroom, he [held] the door. That's when I noticed it was gonna go down. Something. He was gonna hit me or rape me or, or who knows?" she said.

California allows residents to carry guns on private property without permits. Izquierdo had a concealed carry permit from out of state at the time and had been a member of the U.S. Concealed Carry Association for years, she said.

She said she wanted protection after reading stories from the trucking community of women getting raped or killed while on the road.

She bolted from the bathroom as he tried to break in and grabbed her gun from her purse.

"I fired one round because he got on top of me, because he pushed me down, pushed me against the wall," she recounted. The round did not hit him, and other residents in the home had called 911 by this point.

"He was such a big guy. Big, tall White boy," she said.

Police arrived, according to Izquierdo and her attorney Andy Beltran, and arrested the woman. She was charged with discharge of a firearm with gross negligence, a felony, and exhibiting a firearm, a misdemeanor.

Izquierdo spent the next 20 or so days behind bars until her sister reminded her on a phone call she was a U.S. Concealed Carry Association member, which offers self-defense liability insurance. She then connected with Beltran and his team, who argued Izquierdo was acting in self-defense when she pulled the trigger.

We initially took this case over from the public defender's office. Our first goal was to get Maybi bailed out, which we were able to arrange with the help of the Universal Fire & Casualty Insurance Company, which is the self-defense insurance carrier," Beltran told Fox News Digital.

He and his partner then poured over evidence and worked with private investigator William Sera, a retired Los Angeles Police Department officer, who walked through the home with Izquierdo to replay every action of the incident.

"The notable pieces of discovery were the 911 call, the surveillance footage, Maybi's statement to the police, witness statements,= and the statement of the aggressor," Beltran said.

He added that he and the legal team spoke with the deputy district attorney assigned to the case to argue it was an case of self-defense. The deputy district attorney reportedly resisted dismissing the case, and Beltran demanded a meeting with the supervising deputy district attorney to argue prosecutors "had serious problems with their case."

"The supervisor thoroughly reviewed the evidence that I discussed with her, and she stated that she would seriously consider our position. After a couple of weeks or so, the supervisor emailed me to inform me that the DAs office will be agreeing to dismiss the case," he said.

The case was dismissed July 14, according to Beltran and court documents reviewed by Fox News Digital.

"Our advice to others is to refrain from making any statements to the police even if you think you are in the right. When the police showed up to the scene in this case, they spoke to the aggressor, and he communicated to them that he was the victim. When the police spoke with Maybi, they got certain admissions from her that led to her arrest. The officers made the arrest without considering the surveillance footage or 911 call," Beltran said.
Last edited by Voodoo Blue 57 on Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:35 am, edited 4 times in total.
Phil

“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” ―Ronald Reagan

“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.” ―Ronald Reagan

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Re: Llano del Rio

Post by Voodoo Blue 57 » Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:43 am

Tonight's net will be on a little know commune called Llano del Rio but first a little background. I knew nothing about this group and frankly had never heard of them before my friend Lindsey called me and wanted to know if I'd go camping and look for some of ruins built by this Llano. I'm always up for camping so of course I said yes. Looking at ruins and history is also fun.

I also knew nothing about Wrightwood CA. where we were starting our search. Lindsey's spent the last 30 or so years camping at the Table Mountain campground. Lindsey's children and their friends pretty much spent a majority of their early camping years at Table Mountain. Table Mountain is a developed campground with fire pits, pit toilets, and a camp host. Reservations are made through the recreation.gov web site.

On our first trip we started at Table Mountain and headed NW on Big Pines HWY to Jackson Lake. The Llano del Rio people installed a water gate to control the water feeding Mescal Creek. We were able to see the top of the water gate on the shore line (unfortunately with all our trips there I never got a picture). This spring on our last trip with all the rain we received, only the screw at the top of the gate was visible about 10 feet out in the lake.

We left Jackson lake in search of 2 Kilns, a Silo and other ruins associated with Llano del Rio. We headed NW again on Big Pines HWY for several miles before turning right on Bob's Gap Road. On Bob's Gap Road we crossed a valley, turned right along the base of a hill until it turned left. After turning left you need to slow down (which we didn't do and drove right by Kiln 1). There is a guard rail on the right and just pasted the guard rail is a turn right into a wash and we parked. The Kiln is about 10 yards right next to the road. Along with the Kiln there is the foundation of what probably was a residence or storage room.

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Storage Foundation

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From the wash instead of getting back on the road we decided to continue on the 4x4 trail leading along the base of the hill to the right' Why drive on asphalt when there is a trail to explore. The trail slowly circled the base of the hill and turned left and climbed going below a house with lots of glass looking over the valley on our right. Eventually we ended up next to the house and follow the dirt street down the hill in search of the 2nd Silo. This turned out to be challenging. At the end of the dirt street we turned left and then turned left on Bob's Gap Road, the road running next to Kiln 1.

With our GPS coordinates in hand, as we drove up Bob's Gap road we veered left onto another dirt street, 185th Street East. On the left side of 185th street are fenced off lots some of which have containers on, our or two with houses and some empty. As we got closer to our GPS coordinates it was apparent that or destination was about a quarter mile past the gate marking private property. This surprise us because we had pictures from the net showing people at the Kiln so somehow there must be a way to get there. Armed with our maps we looked for a way around the private property, the property backed up to a hill with no connecting road or trail to the other side. Disappointed we headed off tho located some other structures.

So, we headed back down 185th St. East crossing over the California Aqua Duct following our GPS and looking for a Silo. As we passed Crystal Airport and some houses we crossed Ave W and low and behold off to our left was a silo. Turning around we turn right and headed in the direction of the silo. Ave W ended and following a two track trail we crossed the desert and just before the Silo we had to cross a wash. Nothing for us but if you are in a low clearance all-wheel-drive vehicle you may not have the approach clearance up the other side.

Along with the silo were the walls of a barn (later I'd find out it was a dairy) and storage rooms.

Sillo and Dairy
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This pictures shows both side walls of the Dairy. I wish I had a better picture of the inside left wall because at the base was a 4 inch deep water trough that ran the length of the wall. This provided a constant water supply for the animals.

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Storage Rooms
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Leaving the Dairy we followed a 2 track trail North toward Pearblossom Highway. Stopping before the Highway starting looking for clues to where the canvas tents were erected for the members residences. My pictures don't show enough detail of the area but there are about 2 inch pads arranged in the area just South of Pearblossom Highway and just North of the Highway. Here is a satellite picture of the area just South of Pearblossom Highway. In the picture you can see a rock outline of one of the pads.

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Leaving the South Side we crossed over Pearblossom Road and checked out the Hotel. Along with the hotel were the stables, various water catch basins, fish hatchery, and an example of the water troughs through out the commune.
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Horse Barn Foundation
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Fish Hatchery
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Water Holding Tanks

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Water Troughs

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After exploring the area we headed back to Wrightwood and camp.
Last edited by Voodoo Blue 57 on Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:22 pm, edited 11 times in total.
Phil

“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” ―Ronald Reagan

“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.” ―Ronald Reagan

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Voodoo Blue 57
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Re: Llano del Rio

Post by Voodoo Blue 57 » Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:43 am

On our second trip to checkout more of the Llano del Rio ruins we decided to follow the water.

Jackson Lake feeds the Mescal Creek and across the road from Jackson Lake is a trail that follows Mescal Creek. Since this was where the commune got some of their water we decided to see how far we could go. The road is pretty easy with at least 2 crossings. The crossings are rock strewn and any standard clearance vehicle will need a spotter or at lease some cautious wheel placement.

There were several small dams and spillways constructed from concrete, some of it looked old enough to be from the commune time. In one section of the creek there is a large trough with steel plates on top. Water is diverted to a reserver on the left side of the trail. The reservoir was empty but we found a pump in a lock closet pumping water out. Out best guess was that the diverted water drained into a pipe under the reservoir to the discharge pump. Down stream from the pump were several large water tanks suppling water to some houses.
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After exploring Mescal Creek we decided to checkout some of the off-road trails around Wrightwood.

There are some really nice off-road trails around Wrightwood. If you head West on Big Pines Highway from Wrightwood turning left on to Angeles Crest Highway you will come to a parking lot on the left for the Pacific Crest Trail. Across from the parking lot is the Blue Ridge Truck trail that takes you above Mountain High Ski Resort. There are three campgrounds along this trail. The first one is Blue Ridge Campground. This is where we camp on our last trip. The second icampground is Guffy and the third is Lupine. Lupine is at the end of Blue Ridge Truck Trail. When we got out of our vehicles we were immediately swarmed by gnats and flys.
Last edited by Voodoo Blue 57 on Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Phil

“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” ―Ronald Reagan

“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.” ―Ronald Reagan

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Voodoo Blue 57
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Re: Llano del Rio

Post by Voodoo Blue 57 » Sat Oct 14, 2023 10:47 am

Armed with new GPS coordinates Lindsey and I decided to try again to find the the 2nd Kiln. This time we decided to camp at Blue Ridge Campground which we found on a previous trip.

Blue Ridge is a primitive pay for use campground with pit toilets. The campground is the first campground along Blue Ridge Truck Trail. Blue Ridge does fill up fast on a Friday so it's best to get there early.

Off we went Saturday morning in search of our 2nd Kiln. Our GPS coordinates took us up the same road toward the private property, only this time GPS showed the location short to the right of the gate in a vacant field. We had looked at the field before but this time we parked and even though there was a private property sign we decided to hike around the property looking for any clues. All we found was a small concrete foundation not old enough to be from out rime frame.

Discouraged we headed back down the road and back to camp. On the radio Lindsey mention it would be nice if we could find someone to ask. At just that time as we passed one of the houses I saw a woman opening her garage. We stopped, backup and parked. Cautiously we approached her, explaining that we had been looking for this Kiln and if she could help us.

She said "you mean this" and took us back to the road around our FJ's to the edge of her property to point it out. We all looked in the direction she was pointing but couldn't see anything. She said "oh I guess you can't see it from here". She then said follow me and took us back onto her property, along the side of her garage, onto her side porch and around the porch to the back of her house. Standing on the back porch you could see the Kiln plane-as-day.

She told us that we need to turn left at one of the streets down the hill and mentioned that you could not drive to it, even though motorcycles do.

Off we went, and she was right we found a parking spot next to the road and hiked down to the Kiln. You could see that sometime me in the past a vehicle had driven down the tail running over some of the plants, and there were motorcycle tracks.


2nd Kiln from road

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We saw that heading down hill from Kiln 2 was an established 2 track trail that could be used to drive up to the Kiln from below.

We hiked back to our FJ's and continued down the road to the first junction and turned right. We than drove to the next place we could turn right which put us below the Kiln. From this road we could not see the Kiln and when we came what looked like the right spot we turned right and drove up to the Kiln.

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Phil

“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” ―Ronald Reagan

“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.” ―Ronald Reagan

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Voodoo Blue 57
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Re: Llano del Rio

Post by Voodoo Blue 57 » Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:21 am

So who or what was Llano del Rio?

Lindsey's family loves Mountain High Pizza in Wrightwood. On Sunday, before we head home we always stop for lunch and Linsey picks up a large to take home for the family. Mountain High is takeout only, they do have a couple of tables next to the shop but we walk over to the the park and enjoy our meal under the trees.

What does this have to do with Llano del Rio? Llano del Rio information was real scarce on the net and finding any history was even harder.

It turns out that Wrightwood was having a community event with stores displaying their goods in front under easy ups. And Next door to Mountain High Pizza is a museum covering some of Wrightwood's history. We decided to take a look and inside was a poster board with a brief history of Llano del Rio.

I got permission from the docent to take pictures of the items on the poster and do a presentation on llano.


Llano del Rio history.

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Phil

“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” ―Ronald Reagan

“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.” ―Ronald Reagan

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Voodoo Blue 57
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Re: Llano del Rio

Post by Voodoo Blue 57 » Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:39 am

Anyone hear of the battle for the German Town Annadorf?

Well, during my research I came across this tidbit of information I thought I'd share as an extra.

Toward the end of the WWII the Army built a mock town in the Big John Flats area of Wrightwood. The goal was to be able to replicate a German town to practice attacking and securing.

There is nothing there and Big John Flats is on private property and restricts visitors.
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For more information stop by the Wrightwood museum.
Phil

“We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.” ―Ronald Reagan

“Government’s first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.” ―Ronald Reagan

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Re: Llano del Rio

Post by K9Nigel » Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:00 pm

KC6JGZ check in

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Re: Llano del Rio

Post by NotAMog » Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:15 pm

Please check in -

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Re: Llano del Rio

Post by Diesel4x » Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:39 pm

Please check in Randy KF6KOC and Becky KF6RGR

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